Q. Why can’t Protestants receive communion at the Catholic Church?
A. To protect them from Judgment.
1 Corinthians 11: 27 Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be
guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28 A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. 29 For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself. 30That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep.
Since, Protestants do not believe in the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist as we do, they do not discern or recognize that Jesus’ body is present under the appearance of bread and wine. We would be allowing them to eat and drink judgment upon themselves. The prohibtion is actually very charitable but, unfortunately, it is usually seen as a rejection.
Evidence of this interpretation of this passage is supported by St. Justin the Martyr :
“We call this food Eucharist; and no one else is permitted to partake of it, except one who believes our teaching to be true…”
-Justin Martyr -FIRST APOLOGY, 66,20–(150 A.D.)
Q. Why do we call the bread “The Host”?
A. Our use of this term, to refer to the consecrated bread, comes from the Latin word hostia, which means ‘victim’. We believe that Jesus Christ is really present in the consecrated bread and wine on our altars. The mass is a re-presentation of the sacrificial death of Jesus on the cross. Therefore, Jesus is the victim of sacrifice and we call the bread the host/victim to help us remember that it is no longer bread but the Real Presence of our Lord Jesus Christ given to us to strengthen and keep us on the journey to Heaven.
Technorati Tags: Protestants, Catholic, Communion, Eucharist
May 8, 2008 at 6:00 pm |
Even though I hear Protestants get upset about not being able to receive communion at Catholic Church (the most ironic thing is that many of these people complaining about it are virulent anti-Catholics who would never go to Mass anyway, and certainly would not receive the “blasphemous” host if the did), few Protestants have a truly open communion. Most restrict it to those who are baptized, some restrict it to those who are baptized in a recognized denomination, others restrict it to those baptized in that specific church (i.e. you can receive if you were baptized as a member of Beacon Street Baptist but not Park Street Baptist).
PS-I made up the names of the churches.
May 8, 2008 at 6:50 pm |
Cody-It sounds like quite a few people restrict communion, including Catholic and it’s interesting to see that many can justify why.
Communion should have no restrictions. It is not up to us, whether Catholic, Prostestant, Penecostal, Baptist, etc. to decide who should receive communion and who shouldn’t. If a man has sin in his life that he has not repented of or if a man believes something different than anyone else believes, that is between him and God.
In Corinthians 11:26, as in the above post, it states……
“A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup.”
A man ought to examine himself. So perhaps we should allow the man to examine himself and the church should stop attempting to intervene. I don’t believe Jesus’ offer to receive communion was exclusive as it seems to be in so many churches.
I have been to Mass and have often wondered why communion is only offered to those who are Catholic. This seems to be no different than what the churches that Cody has mentioned do. Are we not the same body of believers? We may have some difference of opinions, but we are of the same body-Christ.
I wonder how many we keep away from the table or how many we keep from receiving Christ by our human rules, whether it be by error or arrogance.
May 8, 2008 at 8:08 pm |
Freedom,
Difference of teaching is a lot more serious than a mere difference of opinion.
One need only look to the early church to find bishops limiting communion to those who followed the orthodox teaching of the church. Communion was sometimes sent from bishop to another to show that they were in communion with each other. In other words, to be in communion with a church means to have the same teaching and therefore the same faith as that church. We now live in an age when the fragmentation begun in the 16th Century is rapidly multiplying. Christians are less and less in communion with each others teaching now than before. So, there should be actually less sharing of communion with one another if we are to take the practices of the early church seriously, which Catholics do.
May 8, 2008 at 9:48 pm |
I understand that Catholics take the early church practices seriously, as they should. However, they are not the only ones to take early church practices and the teachings of Jesus seriously.
Perhaps if one was to look at events prior to the first church and prior to bishops or denominations, they would find Jesus offering communion to the disciples, not just Catholics or between bishops, but to his disciples.
Just Jesus and his disciples, his followers. Nothing more or less than.
If one says they are a disciple of Christ than who are we to say any differently? I consider myself a disciple, a follower of Jesus Christ and I do not consider myself to be Catholic. According to you, I’m not allowed to take communion.
You said…”to be in communion with a church….”. Perhaps this is where the true disagreement lies. I believe we are to be in communion with Jesus, not the church. Perhaps are ideas of communion are completely different.
Yours with the church and mine to be with Jesus, as it is written.
While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat; this is my body.” Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. I tell you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it anew with you in my Father’s kingdom.”
Peace be with you.
May 8, 2008 at 10:23 pm |
Wait a second. Jesus did not offer communion to his disciples who numbered in the thousands. He offered communion to his apostles. This is a huge difference. Bishops are the successors of the apostles, not just any disciples, but of the apostles. So, to be in communion with Christ in his singular act at the Last Supper requires us to be in communion with the bishops who are in line with the apostles. Catholic theology, you see, is all interwoven. It isn’t a collection of random ideas thrown together. It is a systematic understanding of who Christ is, who the Church is and who we Christian are in relation to both. That is, sacramental theology, ecclesiology, christology, the Trinity all form a single whole.
So, how Catholics understand “being in communion with” fits into all areas of theology from scripture to Aquinas to the present. And the Catholic thinking on this topic is perfectly in line with the thinking of the early church back to the apostles and yes, back to Christ at the last supper.
May 9, 2008 at 12:47 am |
Fr. J-
I understand what you are saying when you speak about the difference between apostles and disciples. I agree, Jesus offered communion to a select few that we call apostles, not the thousands that followed Jesus. You can clearly see there is a difference when they use the word disciple in the scripture I copied above in regard to the last supper.
However, all this is really far from the point I’m attempting to make. As I said before, it sounds like unless I am Catholic, I should not be receiving communion.
In your eyes, is that correct?
May 9, 2008 at 3:26 am |
To be in union with Jesus is to be in union with HIS CHURCH. Non Catholics should not receive communion!
May 9, 2008 at 3:29 am |
Funny how people demand what they don’t believe in!
To receive communion in the Catholic Church means to be in union with it. Do you accept that Jesus left us apostles and their successors to guide us? Do you accept that Peter had primacy over the Apostles and that his successors do to this day? Do you accept that the Blessed Sacrament is body and blood of the Lord? Do accept the Immaculate Conception of Mary? ETC ETC…..
Why demand something that you don’t belive in?
May 9, 2008 at 4:13 pm |
Wow. Well hello Diane.
I’m not sure why you are yelling or why you are assuming that I’m demanding something. I was under the impression that I was having dialogue with Fr. J.
Yes Diane, I do believe in all of those things that you mentioned above except that the Catholic church is Jesus’ ONLY church and you are the ONLY apostles.
According to you Diane, until I convert and conform to the Catholic way, I can not partake in commuion with Jesus or His church. I can understand if one was to make a requirement to be a Christian before partaking in commuion, however what you are saying sounds very arrogant Diane.
What it sounds like you are saying to the world is the only people that are real Chrsitians are Catholics. By no means am saying that you actually said this, I’m just saying, by your words, this is how it sounds.
Just because I completely disagree with this, does not mean I am demanding anything. I have placed no demands on you, you are more than welcome to come to my church and partake in communion with Christ. As your sister in Christ, I would stand by your side and take communion with you.
I personally believe that many people are getting hurt and kept from Christ because of the limitations our belief systems are placing on God’s people. Much like the days when Jesus walked the earth with Pharisees.
Thank you Diane, you answered my questions more than thoroughly.
Peace be with you.
May 9, 2008 at 4:18 pm |
Stephanie,
The issue of whether the last supper was with apostles and disciples does answer your question. In order to receive communion in Christ’s Church, one must be in communion with that Church which is founded on the apostles and passed down to the present through the bishops. If you are not in communion with the bishops, you cannot receive the Eucharist from them. So, no it is not possible for a Protestant to receive Communion in the Catholic Church.
This is not to say that only Catholics are Christians, but that Christians are not in communion with each other on fundamental issues. It is not that we just refuse communion to other Christians, we also should not receive in other churches because we are not in communion. In other words, for Catholics it is not about ones thoughts or feelings about the sacrament that opens one to communion, but the totality of teaching and practice. When one receives communion, one is say “I believe and hold all that the Catholic Church teaches and holds.”
May 9, 2008 at 4:22 pm |
A question that comes to mind about seeking Communion in the Catholic Church when one is not from a true particular Church (i.e. a church with 7 saccraments rather than a Protestant ecclesial community) is the difficulty of proper preparation.
Affirming Who the Eucharist is, is a begining. Sharing in our faith of HOW to receive is another thing to consider.
Not to be snarky, but those who are concearned about open communion never seem to be clamoring for an open confessional. So much as missing one Sunday Mass for non-hardship reasons (health, blizzard, being stuck at an airport in Timbuktu) makes it necessary for a Catholic to confess these sins properly and receive absolution.
There were years that I believed in Who the Eucharist is, but could not receive because due to my recalcitrance in seeking the confessional, I was never prepared.
May 9, 2008 at 4:48 pm |
Fr. J-
Thank you. I do understand what you are saying although I don’t really agree. As I said to Dianne, I just think many people are getting hurt by the belief systems WE have created and perhaps we should all be reviewing those systems we have put in place again.
Simplesinner-
Snarky? LOL.
Personally, I’m good with confessing my sins to others openly. It seems a bit much though that one would have to confess if they were stuck in a Timbuktu airport. (Did I understand that correctly?)
May 9, 2008 at 5:53 pm |
Catholics confess to priests.
You may have misunderstood the Timbuktu airport; if you failed to attend Mass because you were stuck in the Timbuktu airport, it is a hardship so no sin. If you failed to attend Mass for a reason other than hardship (examples include stuck in airport), you have sinned and must also confess that.
May 9, 2008 at 5:54 pm |
Clarification: Catholic beliefs. I don’t know your beliefs.
May 9, 2008 at 7:34 pm |
Nan got it right – my point was if you are stuck somewhere where Mass is an impossibility (lost at see, stuck at an airport, car broken down on the side of the road miles from no where, etc) there is no sin in missing your obligation.
When you say “Personally, I am good with confessing my sins to others openly.” You – perhaps unkowingly – underscore my point. Without believing and affirming what Catholics teach about confession as a necessary sacrament with a priest giving absolution, one does not share in beliefs about the Eucharist. In this matter, what seems a step removed from the Eucharist itself is totally related – we believe you need confession and sacramental absolution from a validly ordained priest.
THis is the reason why some non-Catholics (who are not Protestant) have limited permission to recieve communion – because they have priesthood and confession. (Like the Russian Orthodox, Armenian Orthodox, Polish National Catholic Church….)
May 9, 2008 at 8:16 pm |
Simplesinner-
Yes, I’m familar with Catholic beliefs and practices. Again, the biggest point I’ve been attempting to make is the one I last commented on to Fr. J.
May 9, 2008 at 9:24 pm |
Jesus didn’t start many churches…only one unified church. Jesus didn’t leave us many churches with disagreements….He left one unified church. So, when you look at all of the christian churches with all of their disagreements on doctrine, theology, etc., you have to realize that their whole situation is an ERROR.
Other christian denominations may have some elements of truth, such as belief in the triune God, but none have the FULLNESS of God truth save for the one He started…the Catholic Church. The sooner protestants can see the flaws in their beliefs, the better. As Scripture tells us, false doctrine will lead you away from Christ. Protestant beliefs such as acceptance of remarriage, salvation come via faith alone, etc. are false and will have you living in a way that is at odds with the Lord’s directives.
So, that’s why if you are not in union with Jesus’ church, you should not receive communion in it, because you subscribe to false teachings….in essence, protestantism is a heresy that Satan loves, because it causes divisision, which Jesus and St. Paul explicitly warn against, along with a whole host of other errors.
May 9, 2008 at 9:31 pm |
The belief system of the Catholic Church was not put in place by men, but by Jesus…the Catholic Church is simply carrying on what the Lord has started. When He ascended into heaven, He left us a church to guide us (not the Bible). It is the Church that is the pillar and foundation of truth…it was that church that gave you the New Testament almost 350 years later and the only church around today that could be the one that Jesus started is the Catholic Church…it alone has carried on the faith the same way that Jesus gave it to his Apostles to hand down.
If you need more info, email me at dsulpizio@sbcglobal.net.
June 20, 2008 at 11:58 pm |
I agree with stephanie. She has every right to recieve communion just as much as the next sinner. I believe the Catholic Church is playing with fire here by putting limitations on salvation. I believe this is the main reason why church life is so segragated today is because of extreme limitations. If one believes the eucharist means one thing and interprets scripture different than the the other and sees it differently isn’t this the relationship between man and God what matters? I think that the church needs a healthy dose of humility. The church definately sets up a wall for the potential new believer.
June 21, 2008 at 1:35 am |
If Protestants wish to protest against the restriction of communion to Catholics in a state of grace , they certainly may–protest, that is. They can also rebel and take communion anyway. But, remember, we are not dealing with the opinions of men here but with submission to Christ. So, if a Protestant wishes to willfully take the Eucharist at a Catholic Church, I caution you to reconsider the words of St. Paul:
June 21, 2008 at 4:59 am |
This is not just a protestant perspective, this is the perspective of many followers of Christ. I speak on behalf of many authentic seekers and followers of Christ who may have never been raised near or in a Catholic church. I speak based on my experience. I was not affiliated or raised in a church but was called to Christ as a mere sinner and my life was changed. when I accepted Christ into my heart I truly experienced baptism in his holy spirit . This took place in a Baptist church yes, but at the time I was only there for prayer and counsel and opened my heart to Christ in a life changing moment. He surrounded me with love and grace and became touched me spiritually and , and I was right then in there washed clean in his love and born into to a new life and relationship to him. This can take place anywhere anytime. its not about the building, the act of holy communion reaches people anywhere God wills it. It could happen in a moment of honesty with god in a quiet room or in a far a way place where Church life is not available. You can look at scripture in a way the church teaches and you can also prayerfully discern how God speaks to us individually. Sometimes I think we can over look what God may be trying to tell us when we just hold to a set interpretation that only a holy God can communicate to us when we are open to receive from him through his holy spirit. When I read Corinthians 11:27 I see a passage that clearly warns us to partake in communion with a clean heart and authentic contrition recognizing we are desperate for the blood that was shed for us all, confessing our sin before him . Jesus makes a way for us to know the Father. He warns us because it is for the best for us as believers to come to him for forgiveness and not merely go through the motions as if the drink or the bread is the salvation, that it is Christ and what he did for us on the cross. I wont continue with this because I feel I don’t want to be mistaken for a rebellious non-catholic. Just know that you may just be a little too concerned for a sister in Christ here. I am not trying to prove anything to anyone personally as I know there are many faithful Christians who choose to worship in the Catholic Church, Nor anywhere else they choose to seek Gods love in this world. I love my catholic brothers and sisters in Christ as well as my Protestant or methodist, or baptist sisters and brothers. The body of Christ is not a building, it is people in the world who Jesus calls to himself.
June 21, 2008 at 3:31 pm |
Kristen,
Thanks for commenting.
“This is not just a protestant perspective, this is the perspective of many followers of Christ.”
As far as I know, only Protestant Christians ok intercommunion without limits. All non-Protestant Christians, Catholic and Orthodox, forbid it.
“This can take place anywhere anytime. its not about the building, the act of holy communion reaches people anywhere God wills it.”
I think there’s some sort of equivocation going on with “communion” here. Yes, we may commune with God– and God may commune with us– at any time, in any place. But this is not the same as saying that we may receive Holy Communion (that is, the Eucharist) at our own whim. There are restrictions and limits which the Church has always placed on the reception of the Eucharist. One need only look at Paul, or the Didache, and most subsequent Christian documents.
“Sometimes I think we can over look what God may be trying to tell us when we just hold to a set interpretation that only a holy God can communicate to us when we are open to receive from him through his holy spirit.”
Likewise, you too need to beware not to become set in your interpretation of Scripture.
“When I read Corinthians 11:27 I see a passage that clearly warns us to partake in communion with a clean heart and authentic contrition recognizing we are desperate for the blood that was shed for us all, confessing our sin before him . ”
Catholics would not disagree with this, but would also add that discerning the presence of the Lord in the species is necessary for reception.
“Jesus makes a way for us to know the Father. He warns us because it is for the best for us as believers to come to him for forgiveness and not merely go through the motions as if the drink or the bread is the salvation, that it is Christ and what he did for us on the cross.”
Eternal life is in the reception of the Eucharist (cf. Jn 6:51 and other verses thereafter). Hence, “Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day” (Jn 6:54). This is precisely because the Eucharist is the flesh and the blood of Jesus which was offered for us on the Cross. Hence, in anticipation of the Cross Jesus offers the chalice saying, “this is my blood of the covenant, which will be shed on behalf of many for the forgiveness of sins” (Matthew 26:28).
It is a truism that we ought not to go through the motions, but it must be recognized that the efficacy of the Eucharist lies completely in it being a communion with the Body and Blood of the Lord, which was offered for us on the Cross and thus communicates to us eternal life.
“I am not trying to prove anything to anyone personally as I know there are many faithful Christians who choose to worship in the Catholic Church,”
Thank you. I also know there are many faithful Christians– like yourself– in the Protestant denominations. However, I would say this. The reason why we are entering into discussion with you is because you have questioned our belief in the practice of closed communion. Naturally, we’ve come forward to defend it.
“The body of Christ is not a building, it is people in the world who Jesus calls to himself.”
Naturally we also agree with this. The question is just who is in full communion with the Body of Christ.
God bless.
June 21, 2008 at 3:35 pm |
As a note, by saying “only Protestant Christians ok intercommunion without limit” I did not imply that “All Protestant Christians” do so. For instance, confessional Lutheranism practices closed communion. Check the websites of the Missouri Synod Lutheran church or the Wisconsin Lutherans regarding closed communion– it is their normative practice. Open communion is an aberration, not the norm, in Christianity regarding the Eucharist.
June 23, 2008 at 11:29 pm |
How true. Interesting, this might juxtaposition us into a new conversation elsewhere – namely, the temptation is to view the Catholic Church as “just another” of the thousands upon thousands (and every multiplying) of disparate sects is problematic, even though there may be 500:1 other sects and communities listed in the Yellow Pages™…
Just because something is found among manifold small sects at this particular juncture in time (the same wasn’t true about most of those sects or their forebearers 100 years prior!), doesn’t mean that the Catholic Church is the one that is in the minority here…
July 4, 2008 at 4:08 am |
I used to be protestant, then I realized the truth, the pearl of great price. Jesus intended there to be one faith, one baptism, one holy catholic and apostolic church, not 40K churches. Protestantism is such a trainwreck. They love to water down the teachings to mere nothing. Look at the evolutionary watering down of the Eucharist. The protestants are the minority. Check out the Eastern Catholic and Orthodox Churches. You are the ones on the out. We have preserved the true Faith while you have taken away from it. Protestants say we follow “man-made” teachings when their whole denom is based on one mans heretical beliefs, not the collective Church’s. American society is also to blame for the division. Its in Americans blood to thumb noses at any sort of authority.
July 21, 2008 at 4:19 pm |
Is it just me, or is a great deal of your argumentation here based on ad populum? Problematic, to say the least.
July 21, 2008 at 8:52 pm |
I rather think it is just you.
The post speaks for itself, no such appeal was made.
July 22, 2008 at 1:38 pm |
I was addressing ignatiusbenedict, not the original post.
July 23, 2008 at 3:01 pm |
“Protestants say we follow “man-made” teachings when their whole denom is based on one mans heretical beliefs, not the collective Church’s.”
And by the “collective Church,” you mean that people in power and not anyone in any of the congregations, who are merely disciples of no interest to God, because in your world, only the Bishops are the inheritors of Jesus’ communion with the Apostles and thus no one else matters.
Get real. Look back over the centuries and we can find literally thousands of interpretations, rules, commandments, and decisions by Papal decree that have less basis in theology than they do in the realpolitik of the post-Roman world. The entire feudal system of government was premised on subservience to the Pope (not God).
I *am* sold on the notion that it’d be quite wrong for me as a Lutheran to take communion in a Catholic church, but not because you’re doing me a favor protecting me from sin… it’s because I don’t want to align myself with a group simultaneously pompous to their fellow Christians and yet utterly subordinate to the changing teachings of their mortal leaders.
July 23, 2008 at 7:21 pm |
Maybe, rather than just hurling invectives and making allusions to this “pope-made” rules, you could cite them and then make argument for how it is you have determined your localized, smallish and shrinking sect actually gets it right.
August 9, 2008 at 6:46 pm |
A good catholic doesn’t judge others.
August 9, 2008 at 6:54 pm |
My husband is presbyterian. I am Catholic. The Catholic Priest who married us, told my husband that if he attended Mass in the Catholic Church, and he believed that the Host was the Body & Blood of Christ, then he can receive Communion there. I kept my promise to the Priest and had children, who we raised as Catholic and they made their Sacraments. My husband goes to Mass with us and he does receive Communion. He never practiced his own Religion and felt more like Catholic. He was even asked to bring up the Gifts before Communion a few times and he did. At this time he is trying to find out about the RCIA program. We left a message for the Rectory to contact us about this today.
August 9, 2008 at 10:28 pm |
That’s funny, Our Lord told us “by their fruits you shall know them” and “judge not lest ye be judges.”
Most people confuse the two.
We can and should judge actions, but only God can judge another’s heart and motive.
Your case above is “the end justifying the means.” Since he is not Catholic he should not receive until he is an official member of the Church.
August 9, 2008 at 10:36 pm |
Anonymous.
That is wonderful that your husband is looking into RCIA and being received into the Catholic Church. The priest who advised him to receive communion was mistaken in that advice but perhaps he honestly thought it was OK. You and your husband innocently trusted the priest.
August 22, 2008 at 5:53 pm |
The prohibition against Protestants receiving communion in Catholic Masses is not as absolute as is sometimes stated. Mutual eucharistic hospitality has been offered to inter-church families in the Diocese of Strasbourg. Individual Anglicans travelling in France have been offered eucharistic hospitality. Mennonites participating in the Bridgefolk dialogues on peacemaking have been invited to receive at a Catholic Mass. Brother Roger of Taize — Swiss Reformed — received communion from Cardinal Ratzinger at John Paul’s funeral mass. And Cardinal Kaspar celebrated the funeral Eucharist for Brother Roger, using, I believe, the Taize liturgy.
And it should be noted that many Anglicans, and most Lutherans, do indeed believe in the Real Presence.
August 22, 2008 at 8:12 pm |
The rule stands and all of these are some form of liturgical abuse as far as I know.
In the case of Cardinal Ratzinger giving a non Catholic communion we don’t know the background of that or if B16 didn’t know who it was or did not want to cause scandal.
Tragically, he was murdered 4 months later.
Non Catholics and Catholics in mortal sin are simply not to present themselves for communion. And this includes pro-choice Catholics.
August 22, 2008 at 10:37 pm |
From an article by Abbot John Klassen, St. John’s Abbey, Collegeville,MN, in the 2006 Bridgefolk newsletter:
“In his encyclical Ut Unum Sint Pope John Paul II made a significant change in the requirements for open communion. He wrote, “it is a source of joy to note that
Catholic ministers are able, in certain particular cases, to administer
the Sacraments of the Eucharist, Penance and Anointing of the Sick to Christians who are not in full communion with the Catholic Church but who greatly desire to
receive these sacraments, freely request them and manifest the
faith which the Catholic Church professes with regard to these
sacraments” (para. 46). It is noteworthy that the condition of
not having access to one’s own minister has disappeared. Importantly,
John Paul II repeated the above words verbatim in his encyclical Ecclesia de Eucharistia in 2003.
“As the chief lawgiver of the Roman Catholic Church, he [i.e., JP II] had the
authority to change the universal law of the Church.”
I think it is important to point out that Abbot Klassen is not describing, or endorsing, open communion. But he does go on to point out situations (” particular cases”) in which Christians from the separated traditions of the Reformation might appropriately receive – non-Catholics on a retreat in a Catholic monastic community, Mennonites at the annual meeting of the Mennonite-Catholic dialogue, etc. I am Anglican, my wife Roman Catholic. Most Sundays I attend Mass with her. And even though, given the conditions noted above, I believe I *could* go to communion, I do not do so; if I were to receive the sacrament at her parish on a regular basis, then I should formally join that community. But, when travelling in countries where Anglicans are hard to find, I have received communion at a Catholic Mass. This is, it seems to me, consistent with the guidelines outlined by Pope John Paul II.
Incidentally, you folks have a fascinating site; kudos.
August 23, 2008 at 7:35 am |
Dear Sr.Diane in Christ,
Since I am a catholic layman and an evangelizer, I completely agree with your answer to a so called christian, asimplesinner who seems to rely only on what he/she opines on such a great and true Teachings of Our Lord and Teacher, Jesus Christ Himself, and not really accepting to know this Truth and merge in the Only True Catholic Church stablished by Christ Himself through His Apostle Peter, the Rock on which Christ’s Only Church is built by the Lord Himself in His Father’s Holy Will. If that simplesinner pretestant brethren is agreed with this Truth, then may venture to claim for receiving the Holy Eucharist in a Catholic Church. Let this protestant bretheren read and understand : Matthew 16; 18,19, what Our Lord meant to say to the world of Protestants.
Diane, it is confirmed by your version that you are a True Catholic. Congratulations!Keep it up! Defend the Catholic Faith which is handed over by Christ Himself to you and me, the World more than 2000 years back, of course, before the Great Reformer of Protestant Church(es)Leader Martin Luther was born. Protestants may not be knowing the true story of their Great Reformer. He was a Catholic Priest then, who later died writing to his wife that he divided Christ’s Church(Catholic) into Two; and now millions.
Did he go to heaven directly, for Protestants claim Direct Heaven by virtue of being Baptised. Baptism for them is a Ticket To Heaven……ha…ha…ha…!They never go to Hell after Baptism!They have no Purgatory in their belief, but they actually go there for not believing in Purgatory.
Is it not true that St.Paul, the converted Saul, has clearly written that ” …a partaker in the table of the Lord is a partaker of His Kingdom/Church…;….a partaker in the table of Satan is the partaker of Satan’s Kingdom/Hell….”. So, we catholics don’t want to be partakers of Protestants’ Kingdom…..filled with protests and hatered all the time over the decendants of Abraham on this Earth.They’ll be protesting even against Christ’s graces on all humanity at the Last Judgement Day, as they have already judged His Holy Bible, the inspirations of the Holy Spirit itself during Martin Luther’s so called great Reformation campaign. Who gave the authority to add or discard LORD’s Books from the Holy Bible??????And they are still in Hope of entering Heaven directly!!!Puh….all contradictions……nothing else on their side!!!!
A True Catholic can receive the Holy Communion in any catholic church all around the globe by virture of being a catholic and believer in the truth that “…My flesh is real food to eat and My blood is the real Drink. He who eats of my flesh and drinks of my blood, I will be in him and he in Me, and have eternal life…..”.What Protestants are having as communion is very occasional…and that also they have only to do in memory of last supper of the Lord and nothing else.Since the Pastors have no authority and power vested by Christ to transform the bread and wine into His Body and Blood during the Holy Mass, they do not believe in the Real Presence of the Living Lord Jesus Christ in the form of the Bread and Wine, what they are taking during their Services are nothing but simple bread and wine,but only memory remains.Is this only meant by Christ during His Last Supper celebration?Pretestants seem to carry the Bible all the time with them but never recognizing the True Teachings of Christ in it.They blame catholics for not carrying and reading the Bible and not living the Bible.But they have never seen the log in their own eyes…isn’t it!!! The Protestants ought to understand the Lord’s Words in Truth and obey them in True Faith, for they should not just pretend not to understand this that the Lord has said “…one day there will be only ONE Flock UNDER ONE SHEPHERD. And what will be the Name of that would be ONE Flock????Would that be Luther’s Flock????Or Christ’s Own Flock established 2000 years back????Is Christ so foolish to merge His Own Original Church with Lutheran or Heretics Church?????!!!!!!THINK THINK THINK TWICE!!!!
So, sister may Christ Our Lord and Redeemer bless you and your dear ones!
Praying for you.
Brother in Christ, Michael Rongong,India.
August 23, 2008 at 8:00 am |
Dear Fr,J,
Greetings in the Lord and Our Lady,
Please accept my congratulations for being a True Priest and Brave Priest to defend the Church of Christ and His Noble Faith on earth. I pray to the Holy Triune God to shower upon you and all the catholic priests around the globe the FIRE and GIFTS of the Holy Spirit, so that such heretics may be abundantly blessed, and convert to the ONE and Only One Flock of the Lord!
Our Protestants brothers and sisters are in great great great CONFUSIONS about the True Christian faith and belief. Christ prayed to the Heavenly Father that ” may all (Apostles) that You have given to Me be ONE (United)like We Ourselves are….” has become just an old SAYING of Our Lord for our Protestant brethren.They never think of realizing this Prayer of the Lord, and still they claim to be the True Church and True Christians on this earth.They even don’t believe in the communion of Saints, even though they receive the Names of those Saints during their Baptism. They don’t really know what they are saying and doing!!!!Any way, their WORKS are visible as their NAMES are, and the Lord says…..”At the end, I shall reward them not by their names but by their WORKS.”
It is worthless and sickening to have discussions with the Protestants/heretics, as their vessels of Wisdom is left covered until the Last Judgement. They listen most to Martin Luther, their great Reformer, than to Christ their Lord.
I say, Martin Luther is not a great Reformer, but a Foolish Deformer who ran away from Lord’s Vinyard whom Christ had called as His Holy Priest to work in His Vinyard. But at his own interest to become a great Leader or so called Reformer, left his priesthood and lived a married life, but later at the end of his life, deceived by his own converted so called christian King, Princes, Princesses in Germany. He deformed Christ’s Holy Catholic (Universal) Church, and gave birth to billions of his followers whom we catholics have to give clarifications all the time for their false teachings. I think, the Lord has chosen us catholics to bear these crosses for the salvation of our protestants brethren on this earth……..until the Last Day.
Please bless me and my people Father,
Michael Rongong,India.
E-mail: michaelsonamit@yahoo.co.in
August 23, 2008 at 8:04 am |
In Christ, and His Holy Mother Mary,
Dear Defenders of Catholic Faith and Church,
The Lord does never fail to guide you all in the path of HIS TRUTH. He will surely protect and bless you all and your dear ones for contributing so much towards His Holy, True and Noble Causes!!!!
GOD BLESS ALL !!!!
Your brother in the Lord,
Michael Rongong,India.
August 23, 2008 at 9:27 am |
Dear Protestant brethren in Christ,
At least try to understand the Word of the Lord: Matthew 7: 26-227.Your Great Reformer Martin Luther was a Catholic Priest first called by the Lord to build His Church on the Rock….., but what he did you know???????He built his own church on the sand, which one day, shall surely ruin and washed away from the face of this earth.
And the Universal Church that Christ your and my Lord founded on the ROCK(Peter)and Peter’s co-apostles shall prevail till the End of the World! Now, decide without any further delay lest you all also are in danger of Lord’s Wrath that JUDGEMENT DAY!!!!!! Kindly decide to embrace the UNIVERSAL and let your Particular Sect go away for the sake of YOUR REDEEMER CHRIST. Never try to misjudge the TRUTH that Your Lord and God established from the ages. Your Great Reformer Luther also regreted for dividing Christ’s Church into Two, why you his RATHER INNOCENT FOLLOWERS should continue to tear apart Your Lord’s ONLY ONE TRUE BODY and lay them thrown in front of the swine/pigs. Pigs are pigs, run fast back to their own wastes…..that dirty and muddy refuses. Always seek for the ORIGINAL PEARL and not wasting time and money on the DUPLICATE AND ARTIFICIAL PEARL!!!!!!Why on earth you are so pig-headed and throwing away so precious Pearl in front of the swine and be happy with the artificial one made by Luther Inventor?Come, come back brothers and sisters in Christ, be saved and save your dear ones too. The Mighty and Forgiving Lord Jesus Christ is waiting you all who are not of His Flock(Catholic) so that you might not perish but have eternal life. Leave aside all hopeless Lutheran and protestant attitudes and come near to Your Lord Jesus and His True Original Home, and just say SORRY to Him and get in His Original Home/Flock easily, for He is Forgiving Lord, in whose hand the Eternal Father has bestowed His Power to JUDGE all Living and Dead. Useless, discussions and debates He wants not, but a True and Contrite Heart full of compassion and love, and a heart of repentence, that’s all He wants. SO BE A TRUE CATHOLIC, BE A TRUE CHRISTIAN my brother and sister.
For there are many Catholics also who are living like gentiles, not as True Christians, do not follow them, for they will mislead you, as they themselves are blind and they can not lead you to right path, otherwise both of you will fall in a ditch!!!!Follow good and True catholics, and there you are….. rejoicing eternally in Heaven!!!!!
Mike.
August 23, 2008 at 9:28 am |
Dear Protestant brethren in Christ,
At least try to understand the Word of the Lord: Matthew 7: 26-22.Your Great Reformer Martin Luther was a Catholic Priest first called by the Lord to build His Church on the Rock….., but what he did you know???????He built his own church on the sand, which one day, shall surely ruin and washed away from the face of this earth.
And the Universal Church that Christ your and my Lord founded on the ROCK(Peter)and Peter’s co-apostles shall prevail till the End of the World! Now, decide without any further delay lest you all also are in danger of Lord’s Wrath that JUDGEMENT DAY!!!!!! Kindly decide to embrace the UNIVERSAL and let your Particular Sect go away for the sake of YOUR REDEEMER CHRIST. Never try to misjudge the TRUTH that Your Lord and God established from the ages. Your Great Reformer Luther also regreted for dividing Christ’s Church into Two, why you his RATHER INNOCENT FOLLOWERS should continue to tear apart Your Lord’s ONLY ONE TRUE BODY and lay them thrown in front of the swine/pigs. Pigs are pigs, run fast back to their own wastes…..that dirty and muddy refuses. Always seek for the ORIGINAL PEARL and not wasting time and money on the DUPLICATE AND ARTIFICIAL PEARL!!!!!!Why on earth you are so pig-headed and throwing away so precious Pearl in front of the swine and be happy with the artificial one made by Luther Inventor?Come, come back brothers and sisters in Christ, be saved and save your dear ones too. The Mighty and Forgiving Lord Jesus Christ is waiting you all who are not of His Flock(Catholic) so that you might not perish but have eternal life. Leave aside all hopeless Lutheran and protestant attitudes and come near to Your Lord Jesus and His True Original Home, and just say SORRY to Him and get in His Original Home/Flock easily, for He is Forgiving Lord, in whose hand the Eternal Father has bestowed His Power to JUDGE all Living and Dead. Useless, discussions and debates He wants not, but a True and Contrite Heart full of compassion and love, and a heart of repentence, that’s all He wants. SO BE A TRUE CATHOLIC, BE A TRUE CHRISTIAN my brother and sister.
For there are many Catholics also who are living like gentiles, not as True Christians, do not follow them, for they will mislead you, as they themselves are blind and they can not lead you to right path, otherwise both of you will fall in a ditch!!!!Follow good and True catholics, and there you are….. rejoicing eternally in Heaven!!!!!
Mike.
August 23, 2008 at 9:28 am |
Dear Protestant brethren in Christ,
At least try to understand the Word of the Lord: Matthew 7: 26-27.Your Great Reformer Martin Luther was a Catholic Priest first called by the Lord to build His Church on the Rock….., but what he did you know???????He built his own church on the sand, which one day, shall surely ruin and washed away from the face of this earth.
And the Universal Church that Christ your and my Lord founded on the ROCK(Peter)and Peter’s co-apostles shall prevail till the End of the World! Now, decide without any further delay lest you all also are in danger of Lord’s Wrath that JUDGEMENT DAY!!!!!! Kindly decide to embrace the UNIVERSAL and let your Particular Sect go away for the sake of YOUR REDEEMER CHRIST. Never try to misjudge the TRUTH that Your Lord and God established from the ages. Your Great Reformer Luther also regreted for dividing Christ’s Church into Two, why you his RATHER INNOCENT FOLLOWERS should continue to tear apart Your Lord’s ONLY ONE TRUE BODY and lay them thrown in front of the swine/pigs. Pigs are pigs, run fast back to their own wastes…..that dirty and muddy refuses. Always seek for the ORIGINAL PEARL and not wasting time and money on the DUPLICATE AND ARTIFICIAL PEARL!!!!!!Why on earth you are so pig-headed and throwing away so precious Pearl in front of the swine and be happy with the artificial one made by Luther Inventor?Come, come back brothers and sisters in Christ, be saved and save your dear ones too. The Mighty and Forgiving Lord Jesus Christ is waiting you all who are not of His Flock(Catholic) so that you might not perish but have eternal life. Leave aside all hopeless Lutheran and protestant attitudes and come near to Your Lord Jesus and His True Original Home, and just say SORRY to Him and get in His Original Home/Flock easily, for He is Forgiving Lord, in whose hand the Eternal Father has bestowed His Power to JUDGE all Living and Dead. Useless, discussions and debates He wants not, but a True and Contrite Heart full of compassion and love, and a heart of repentence, that’s all He wants. SO BE A TRUE CATHOLIC, BE A TRUE CHRISTIAN my brother and sister.
For there are many Catholics also who are living like gentiles, not as True Christians, do not follow them, for they will mislead you, as they themselves are blind and they can not lead you to right path, otherwise both of you will fall in a ditch!!!!Follow good and True catholics, and there you are….. rejoicing eternally in Heaven!!!!!
Mike.
August 24, 2008 at 4:50 am |
RE:
I am at a loss… What did I, ASimpleSinner, say to suggest I was ever at odds with the Catholic Faith?
September 17, 2008 at 3:08 pm |
Iagree. Protestants should not take communion. Why should they be able to take part in something that they don’t believe in? Protestant theology is about them and what they believe not what God wants them to believe. But then again, they are protestants “protestors of the Catholic church.” I can say that becasue I myself am joining the Catholic church. Praise God!! Let pray for our protestant brothers and sisters in Christ that they might see the light and see the fullness of the truth.
September 17, 2008 at 11:14 pm |
“Why should they be able to take part in something that they don’t believe in?”
Lumping all “Protestants” together leads to simplistic statements like this (there is truth, I think, in the Windsor Statement’s notion of Anglicans and Lutherans as “the two Catholic churches of the Reformation”). ARCIC came to “substantial agreement” on the Eucharist, including the Eucharistic sacrifice and the real presence. As an Anglican, there is no doubt in my mind that I believe what the Catholic church believes about the nature of the Eucharist.
Our differences are two: one, whether or not the Anglican Communion holds the historic episcopate, or not (Anglicans believe we do, Anglicans value the historic episcopate, and have made it an essential element in our ecumenical discussions with other faith communities; the Catholic church holds that the line was broken), and, two, whether or not women can hold the office of priest or bishop in the church. But about the sacrifice of the Mass, or the Real Presence, there is no disagreement.
September 21, 2008 at 3:58 pm |
FREEDOM, you are entitled to your belief to be “in communion with Jesus, not the church”, and I would suggest that you should consider myself to be entitled to believe that only in the Catholic Church one can be fully in communion with Jesus. This communion is strengthened by reception of the Holy Communion, which is the Body and Blood of Jesus, Jesus himself in point of fact: we Catholics are united with Him when we receive Holy Communion, and through this we are united with one another in that communion which is the Catholic Church. So you are right that “are (our, I presume) ideas of communion are completely different”, and exactly because they are so different we cannot possibly share the Holy Communion which is a sign to us Catholics of that communion which is the Catholic Church, the Loaf of which St. Paul writes, the Christ’s Mystical Body.
I am not disputing the fact that many, not only we Catholics, believe that they “take early church practices and the teachings of Jesus seriously”, but we differ in what we mean by that, and as long as we differ so radically, the sharing in Holy Communion is an offence against Jesus. As far as I am concerned, I am not interested in receiving communion in the post-Reformation |Christian communities, because it is not the Body and Blood of Christ, nor do they believe it to be. On the other hand, the members of these communities offend me whenever they come to the Catholic Church and receive Holy Communion, because they do not come to join the Catholic communion, nor do they believe that what is the most holy thing for me is more than the “bread and wine”. They simply humiliate me.
As a Catholic, I am aware that I have to go to Confession if I have committed a mortal sin, for the sin to be forgiven, and to be reconciled with the Church whom I have offended by the sin. Only then may I receive Holy Communion; otherwise it would be a sacrilege. The post-Reformation Christians do not have confession to have their sins forgiven nor do they believe that the sins are forgiven in that way. Nor can they be reconciled with the Catholic Church in that way. They are not interested in that kind of reconciliation in any case. What are they, then, looking for when, without permission, they dare to receive Holy Communion in the Catholic Church?
We, Catholics have nothing to gain from communion in Protestant communities. On the other hand the Catholic Church is pastorally generous to those Protestants who find themselves cut off from their Minister, desperately need a spiritual support and, at variance with the faith of their own communities, believe fully in the Catholic doctrine on the Eucharist. If rightly disposed they can be, by way of exception, admitted to the Holy Communion.
September 22, 2008 at 2:02 am |
John Schuster-Craig Says:
I am sorry, John, I just can’t agree with your assesment here. The difference is plentiful even within the Anglican communion. Anglicans of the low-church variety reject outright the theologies of the Eucharist that the Catholic Church embraces…
The ARCIC talks – as hopeful as they sounded – seemed to be a case of the most Catholic-thinking Anglicans saying what the most open Catholics wanted to hear… We sent our libs, you sent your Catholic-thinking parties… It has given very little foundation or hope for a real and lasting situation of unity of thought or theology.
September 22, 2008 at 8:43 am |
JOHN SCHUSTER-CRAIG, encyclicals are not legislative documents, and one cannot have a recourse to them in order to do away with the legislation. Although the Pope can change the latter as you rightly say, the encyclicals are not the way of doing it. Nor does an omission, in an encyclical, of a particular stipulation of the law imply that the latter has been changed.
But that appart, the Most Rev. Abbot has seriously misinterpreted the two encyclicals. The Ut Unum Sit, No. 46, refers generally to all separated Christians, and the Pope explicitly says: “The conditions for such reciprocal reception have been laid down in specific norms” which ”must be respected”, and the corresponding foot-note, refers to relevant documents, including Canon Law. The legislation for the Eastern Christians doesn’t stipulate “no access to one’s minister”, while for the Post-Reformation Christians it does. I think that the Pope did not want to go into these details because the object of the Encyclical was different; so, he used a general statement that would cover both the Eastern Christians and the Protestants. On the other hand, the No. 45 of the Ecclesia de Eucharistia applies explicitly to the Eastern Chfistians. The Most Reverent Abbot should have done a better homework than he did.
As to your personal case, I would suggest that “where Anglicans are hard to find”, and assuming you accept the Catholic doctrine on the Eucharist, nor merely the “real presence” or ARCIC agreement, it would be fair to ask local priest for a permission, because he has to verify both your right disposition and your doctrinal position. The best way would be to go to confession, which is covered by the same legislation. We all commit venial sins and these are sufficient for the Confession to be valid – so, that is what I would do in your place, because it would be for my own benefit. The thing to consider in preparation for the confession is why not enter the full communion with the Catholic Church when you are already almost “in”: no need to “convert”; just make good for what is missing?
Regarding other examples given I presume you are aware that a lot of abuse is going on in the Church not only in matters of intercommunion. I am, however, puzzled by what was reported about the cardinals Ratzinger and Kasper, but one would have to know the circumstances.
September 28, 2008 at 3:28 pm |
Why can’t protestants recieve communion? Well, since recieving communion is part of the covanant act of worshipping God you absolutely must be a Christian, a person with a covanant relationship with the One True God in order to recieve. Since protestants have no covanant with God, and thus are not even Christians, they of course can not recieve communion.
September 28, 2008 at 11:21 pm |
Clover:
Your statement is heretical. Protestants certainly are Christians and they are in a covenental relationship by virtue of thier baptism with Christ. They lack, however, the fullness of the Christian faith and even reject the teaching that the Body and Blood of Christ is consumed in communion.
Therefore, they are not in full communion with us and cannot commune with Christ fully in the Eucharist. Therefore, because there lacks communion with us and with the Body and Blood of Christ, it is fraudulent to take communion. A Protestant would be lying with his body by receiving communion in the Catholic Church. This is sacrilege so we PROTECT them from this sin and its consequences as per I Cor 11:27 above.
October 10, 2008 at 4:00 am |
I go around and around on the issue of nonCatholics receiving communion in the Catholic church with my friends of all faiths. For me, it comes down to plain old ettiquette when one is a guest in another house of worship.
If I visited a Mosque and was informed that I needed to remove my shoes, I would remove my shoes; if I entered an Orthodox church and was told I needed to cover my head, I would cover my head. I would do these things not because I necessarily agree with the reasoning/theology/purpose of the rule, but rather because as a guest, I am required to act with graciousness toward my host by respecting the teachings of that house of worship.
Similarly, I expect my nonCatholic brothers and sisters to respect the teachings of my house of worship, the Catholic Church, and refrain from receiving communion because that is the rule in the Catholic Church. One doesn’t have to agree with it, but one should respect it while a guest in the church.
October 14, 2008 at 9:00 pm |
I agree with JM. I am married to a Catholic and we go to church at the Catholic church. His entire family and children are catholic. My children were raised methodist. We honor the Catholic church and his beliefs ( and the church) by not taking communion. Many of our Catholic friends say that they know many people who are not catholic, but just take communion any way because they are believers in Jesus. I am very interested in the faith and want very much to be a part. I am 42 and have been raised in various christian faiths. The thing that saddens me is the attitudes that some of these posts have. Fortunately, no Catholic friends or family that I have are so mean in their interpretation of their beliefs or I don’t think I would continue being interested in this faith. I would think you would want to make disciples of all men. I love the Lord with all my heart. I have witnessed unbelievable miracles in my life and I know His spirit is alive in me whether I take communion in the Catholic church or not. I will proceed in joining the Catholic Church(even these posts can’t change my mind) I would just advise to share your beliefs without the codemnation.People just need facts and information. Not hatefulness.
October 15, 2008 at 2:51 pm |
Just in case there is confusion the posts I was referring to( Michael and Diane). This is the type of envangalism that would send any non christian or baby christian running fast the other way! Like I said had the Catholic faith been represented to me in this form, I (like many) would not have pursued any further interest. I love how loving some of the Catholic faith have been. Patient and kind in witnessing to me. My husband and I were married in my church by my mother who is a Methodist minister. His family was present. Took communion and have lovingly accepted our family coming together and have,by their loving actions made me want to be a part of this faith. I would think that this would be the way to show why being a Catholic is the way. They have put aside the “rules and regulations” and gotten to the very core of our Father…. His amazing love!!!!
October 15, 2008 at 5:58 pm |
Food for thought:
ON a recent program on EWTN called “The Journey Home” the question of why non-Catholics can’t recieve was broached and a perspective little explored in this combox to date was broached.
Namely that St. Paul in his epistles discusses and outlines how damaging unworthy reception can be.
“Wherefore whosoever shall eat the bread or drink the cup of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord.” 1 Cor 11:27
Given that the Catholic Church has a well-considered and comprehensive understanding of what constitutes worthiness. This most certainly includes the Sacrament of confession, which members of all ecclesial communities – not churches – either reject or at least don’t have access to.
The Church is truly acting as a safeguard of souls on this one.
October 15, 2008 at 6:13 pm |
I am NOT worthy now…. all Catholics are….. I will be in the future months when I am a Catholic.
Hmmmmm….
October 15, 2008 at 6:36 pm |
One more question. My husbands EX wife is on staff in the Catholic Church. She for many years had multiple affairs while they were married. Would she still be considered worty to take communion? She continued to take(communion) all through their separation and counselling.
Like I said, I am not arguing that while in his church and not being Catholic I should not take communion. What about the condition of the heart? Does being Catholic just give me a “get out of jail free” card?
Once I am Catholic do I look at my other brothers and sisters in Christ with the attitude that they are not in communion with our Lord? Or not saved? Or clueless?
I am just trying to be educated on all of this before making any decisions.
I am going to refer to an earlier post in stating that yes, there is quite a lot of pain associated with this.
Blessings to you
October 15, 2008 at 7:40 pm |
Being Catholic doesn’t get you a get out of jail free card; communion is contingent on confession of one’s sins. Whether your husband’s ex should take communion at any given time isn’t for you to judge; presumably she has examined her conscience, taken her sins to her confessor and made right with God.
Why don’t you talk to your priest about your areas of confusion? I’m not a theology expert but having attitude about others doesn’t sound like a good plan.
I’m a lot more concerned about the possibility of my future salvation than the perceived shortcomings of the next guy.
October 15, 2008 at 9:21 pm |
Happy, please be happy and drop the sarcasm… especially as it relates to creating a straw man or being sarcastic about arguments I never made.
Q: Who said all Catholics are worthy?
A: Not me.
Q: Who said all Catholics should be recieving?
A: Not me.
Q: Have you been going to confession to a priest and recieving absolution?
Q: Do you believe that confession is part of God’s plan for forgiveness of sins and it prepares us for the reception of the Eucharist?
October 16, 2008 at 5:57 pm |
I apologize!!…. unfortunately, email can be the source of mistaken emotion. I certainly do not mean to come out as sarcastic or unhappy! Like I said I am trying to understand something that I am interested in entering into.
Please reference:
“Since recieving communion is part of the convanant act of worshipping God you must be a christian, a person in covenant with the one true God. Since protestant have no covanant with God and thus are not even christians they of course cannot recieve communion”
Also: ” Let us pray for our protestant brothers and sisters that they might see the light and see the fullness of the truth”
Also: ” Why should they take part in something they don’t believe in”
I used my husbands ex as just one example. No, I am not worried about if she does or doesn’t or should or shouldn’t take communion.No it is certainly not my place to judge that, I agree! I didn’t mean for this to take a turn to focus on that. I am focused on how this pertains to my life.
I am happy, very happy as God has blessed me with a wonderful life a strong Christian family and a wonderful husband with whom I support and honor and am very interested in his faith.
We sat last night and read through most of these posts. There were several practicing Catholics and my best friend who left the church 10 years ago. They were all in agreement that many of these statements they had never in their lives heard, from religious teachings, a priest or otherwise. I asked if they felt like I was not saved because I was not a Catholic and my husband and his brother agreed, that in all their lives that was never anything they had EVER heard in the Catholic faith. ( they did agree to have heard it from church of christ members). I have taken many many in- depth bible studies and a few theology classes through the years. I am fascianated and I am only attempting to understand more of this faith. I reached this site just studying the Eucharist, which I find so very interesting.
asimplesinner..are all catholics worthy was meant as a question, not meant to indicate you felt that way.
A: no I don’t go to a Priest for confession. It was my understanding I must be a member of the church to go. I do confess my sins to my heavenly Father multiple times during the day. I wish I could say that I didn’t have to but I too am a simple sinner and very much need a saviour in my life!
A: yes, I believe that confession is part of God’s plan for forgiveness of sins and it does prepare us for communion. Which I continue to take part in weekly in my church.
I believe that to study with someone who does know theology is wise. I realize that these are comments from people. I was just asking some questions. :) Blessings
October 27, 2008 at 1:59 am |
Everyone:
I don’t even know where to start here, so I’ll just share from my heart my experience.
I was raised in a church all my life in a God-fearing, Jesus-loving, Holy-Spirit directed family. All was well with us.
When I was 15 or so, I crafted an interest in sex, drugs, rock’n'roll, and alcohol.
I literally walked away from the church and the Christian belief.
33 short years later, I came back to Christ, asked Him for forgiveness of my sins, and changed my life form wallowing around in sin to struggling against it.
I am literally the Prodigal Son, forgiven and loved by the Triune Holy Father God, the Christ and the Holy Spirit. I am at peace with most of scripture, and that which I don’t understand, I read anyway, and pray for discernment.
Regardless of the diversities of our varied faiths, I believe Jesus Loves us all and Wants to Draw us to Him.
Judge not lest ye be judged is a token I can live with.
Jesus may have loved Hitler (it is said His Love is Absolute and Perfect), but I didn’t. Hitler probably went to Hell, but judged by God on the Throne Himself, not me. My thinking and emotions are not perfect…they are aspirations to pattern after the Holy Christ who Is my Salvation. I am not fit to judge another’s salvation.
Jesus had grief continually over the Pharisees and Sadducees who took everything so darned literally and missed out completely on the Glory that is Christ. “Brood of vipers”, I believe, were His words.
What a pity — I don’t want to miss it, and I don’t want any of you to miss it!
My sweetheart is Catholic to the hilt. I admire her dedication to the faith, but I think she is unnecessarily restricted sometime. It is almost cultish in its grip on her. She does things Catholic whether they are scriptural or whether they give her joy or grief – she obeys the tenets of the Church stubbornly. That is an observation I am entitled to have as long as I don’t disrespect her right to her choice of worship.
When I met her I was 52 and had never been to a Mass. I was set in faith with Christ by then, and, when she invited me, I discerned thusly — knowing that, as a Christian, I am called to glorify God and to carry the message of the Gospel of Christ Jesus to the world, I looked for that in the service. In that first and all following Masses I have attended those two things were carried out, so I know the Catholics are not heretical. They and I believe in John 3:16, which, is absolutely the fulcrum of all our Christian faith. I have attended regularly for over five years now because I want to be with her when we worship. I go to Mass with her and she goes to Lutheran Bible study and neither one us has burst into flames yet, thank you very much.
Thank GOD in HEAVEN for America and religious freedom, to create an environment where freedom to have these (sometimes ridiculous) disputes is not only allowed, but encouraged!
Back to my understanding of scripture (and true, folks, I am Protestant so sola scriptura is my basis of faith) I see no reason why a hopeless sinner in a dead and dying world, glimpsing the hope of eternity with his Creator, should ever be turned away from ANY communion table. “Take this in remembrance of me”, does not sound like it is His actual body, but a reminder of His Ultimate Sacrifice, that we should be ever mindful and have a true change of heart as a result of our relationship with Him.
But, I am not actually a theologian, either. I go by what is in my heart – Where Christ Lives.
Humanity, over 6 billion souls in number, largely unloving, unlovable, and unloved, yet God till knows the number of hairs on each of our heads, keeps the universe of unknown magnitude in perfect balance, and keeps all our hearts beating while we sleep – Can it be that this Awesome God can be so concerned in the manner in which we worship and glorify Him, as long as we are striving? I think it is not likely.
That’s all I have. Peace to all my brothers and sisters in and out of the faith.
October 27, 2008 at 6:22 pm |
DAVID B., yes, Jesus loves us all, including Hitler and Satan, but He doesn’t love our misbehaviour. He has to put up with the latter, because by making us persons, He gave us a free will, i.e. a capacity to choose between making of ourselves His image and likeness – freely, or stay away from Him and thus dehumanize ourselves by following the Father of Lies – freely abusing that same freedom.
He has set up His Church, i.e. the Catholic Church, to which all are invited to come – freely. It is a family, and the Holy Communion is an internal, most intimate sharing in the life of that family. Those who freely choose to stay out of that family are neither worthy nor welcome to participate in its most intimate life. That makes sense, doesn’t it?
It makes sense particularly with a reference to those who by their own choice explicitly refuse to believe what that family believes, or believe the things that are incompatible with faith of that family. This certainly applies to those:
- Who believe that they can “come back to Christ”, without coming to the Catholic Church whom He set up as the only way to salvation;
- Who believe to be “at peace with most of scripture” without understanding it as the Catholic Church, its author and the sole authentic interpreter, understands it;
- Who support others in their going to the “Lutheran Bible study groups”;
- Who glorify America for its support of religious freedom, as if the religious freedom were a message of Christ, rather than a tolerance of an unavoidable worse evil that would incur should the religious freedom be suppressed;
- Whose “basis of faith” is “sola scriptura”;
- Who do not believe that the Eucharist is the Christ Body, Christ himself in his, body, blood, soul and divinity, but only “a reminder of his Ultimate Sacrifice.”
With this set of beliefs you cannot be a member of the family I am talking about: you are not excluded by anyone, but self-excluded.
The “Awesome God” is indeed “concerned how we worship and glorify him”, because he came down from Heaven to teach us, and set up His Catholic Church to continue his saving work. It is not enough that we are simply “striving”. We have to strive as He wants us to strive.
God will surely be merciful to those who through no fault of their own, but because of an invincible ignorance, mislead by the Satan, choose otherwise. But really, the invincible ignorance is not a compliment to anyone.
Peace to you, brother. We, after all, have something in common: Baptism, NT, and 75% of the OT, faith in God, and Christ-God, the Lord’s Prayer etc. As for what we don’t, you have sincerely stated your position – bluntly, and I am grateful; and hope that you will take mine, stated equally bluntly, without feeling offended
October 28, 2008 at 5:04 pm |
David B. ,
I think you have to take in to consideration different people from the Catholic Church seem (from my observation) to live out their faith in very different ways. Like I said before I am surrounded by Lifetime Catholics and I have yet to come across any opinions that match with the way Michael stated this last post. Most of the ones I have visited with are actually more in line with the post you left. I enjoy going to mass so very much and I am interested in learning more. I enjoy my husbands dedication to worship and I have learned much from him. ( and he says he has learned from me) I have a boss who is church of christ and it is his understanding if you are not his religion you are not saved. My husbands boss is Baptist and he spends his days explaining to my husband how wrong Catholics are. I am sure in every group there are going to be some who think if you are not_______(fill in the blank) you are not saved. I was raised in the Christian Church and as an adult was a member of the Methodist Church for the past 25 years. I was astonished and happy when I started going to mass to enjoy the huge similarities of the Catholic and Methodist services(and religious calender…ie. lent, good friday, )The question I asked about where the posts came from was because the 4 different catholic churches we attend, the friends and family we share, the activities we go to, the studies we attend …..of all of these I have NEVER come across some of these statements. I have been lured into interest of becoming Catholic from the witnessing I have come in contact with through these people. They are so filled with the love of Christ. I use to hear that the Catholics were like a Cult. I have yet to see that. I don’t find my husband, his friends or family to be limited by being in the Catholic faith at all. I don’t know. We are not theologists. We are just simple people who love the Lord. Most of my friends and family(Catholics) don’t understand the communion “rule” either. Maybe some of these people wouldn’t classify them as “good Catholics” . I don’t know. I do know they love the Lord with all their hearts, minds and souls. They love others. They are wonderful people and wonderful witnesses for the Lord. They have drawn myself and several others that I know of into the church.
As I say to my brothers and sisters in Christ each Sat. evening at Mass:
Peace be with you! :)
November 2, 2008 at 6:41 pm |
I can’t believe the hardened hearts that I see on this blog! Diane has a heart that is harder than Pharaoh’s.
When she wrote “To receive communion in the Catholic Church means to be in union with it. Do you accept that Jesus left us apostles and their successors to guide us? Do you accept that Peter had primacy over the Apostles and that his successors do to this day?”
How do I describe my thoughts and feelings? Let’s start with this, Men make mistakes. If you start relying on men to guide you uncontrollably, then you are a slave and a robot. Popes have made mistakes. God’s Word does not. Who are you going to believe? God’s Holy Word or a man who makes human mistakes? When you answer that one, then you will understand the soul of the Reformation.
As hard as that is to accept, Sola Scriptura is the center of the Reformation. If you change the Bible to suit your doctrine, and it has happened with the Roman Catholic Church, such as Mary not having other children, then who is being false? When men change the Bible to authenticate doctrine, then someone is playing with fire. Think about the Bible: self-authenticating, clear to the rational reader, its own interpreter, and sufficient of itself to be the final authority of Christian doctrine.
As Methodist’s, we have open communion. Come to the banquet, come to this solemn, connecting moment. Come with a joyful heart. Come with a thankful heart. Come worship, praise with music and song and your whole heart. Afterwards go forth with peace and service.
We have much more in common with the Roman Catholic Church than you realize. Soften your heart, Love Jesus, Love The Holy Spirit and Love God the Father with all your heart, mind, soul and strength; and love your neighbor as you do yourself; even if he is a Methodist boy.
November 3, 2008 at 2:31 am |
SCOTT, I’ll leave to Diane to sort out the matter between you; I only want to bring to your attention that if the Methodism is what you have spelled out in your comment, it has, regrettably, very little in common with the “Roman” Catholic Church. In many aspects you are more like Moslems than Christians.
Your Sola Scriptura is analogous to their Quran-only. You and them believe that these books somehow came from Heaven: a sort of faxmashine printout, cabled from above.
You call it “God’s Holy World”, “self-authenticating, clear to the rational reader, its own interpreter, sufficient of itself to be the final authority”; and they call it “Glorious Quran”, copy of the Heavenly one, and, in different words, say much the same about it. To spare me repeating, have a look what Rizwan replied to Dalry’s challenge. It is in the post Islam Overtakes Catholicism….of March 31, but his replies were in October from 20th to 28th.
And, like Rizwan with reference to the Quran, you too are unable to prove from the Bible that it is the Word of God. You learned it not from the Reformation, but from the Catholic Tradition.
Like Moslems and Jehovah Witnesses, you are trying to argue from the Bible against the Catholic Church; the only difference being that you know little bit more about the Bible than the Moslems know. But all of you fail to realize that the Catholic Church is the author of the NT, that she has adopted as her own the OT, both under the guidance of God the Holy Spirit, whom God the Son promised to the Apostles.
It is the case with all written documents that the author is the ultimate authority when it comes to the meaning of his own document. And the Catholic Church is the author of the Bible; therefore, its authentic interpreter. O.K ?
A reasonable man doesn’t venture an opinion about matters he knows nothing. And from what you say about the papacy, it is evident that all what you know is second hand, from ignorants who are not interested in finding out what the Catholic Church believes. You can neither agree nor disagree with what you don’t know. And yet you are trying to ridicule it and call it “love”.
We are not interested in your “open communion”: we have nothing to gain from taking a piece of bread and a sip of wine. If we were to do it, we would be guilty of misleading you to think that your “open communion” is in any way comparable with the Holy Communion. From your “joyful” account it is evident that your notion of the Eucharist is defective. And in any case, due to lack of priesthood in your Community, you cannot have a valid Eucharist.
Eucharist is Sacrifice, one with Our Lord’s Sacrifice, and not a jolly good party.
My good “Methodist boy”, you are misguided. It is my duty to tell you, because we are supposed to love our neighbours, and you certainly are.
November 3, 2008 at 3:11 am |
Scott, you have less in common with either the Roman Catholic church or people who use proper punctuation than you believe; for one, the plural of Methodist does not use an apostrophe, so you are properly Methodists, not Methodist’s; for two, sola scriptura is a Protestant invention and doesn’t include the entire Bible.
Martin Luther, in addition to rejecting Catholicism, truncated the Bible. That means you’re several books short of a true Bible. Additionally, if you know history of mankind, Sola Scriptura makes no sense; up until the time of Gutenberg, books were hand-copied, most frequently by monks (yeah, those wacky Catholic monks!), who were the literate class, and were limited to Church, State or the very wealthy. Even if people found a book, most people didn’t know how to read or write so what good would it do them?
Open communion makes no sense as it includes people with varying beliefs. I’ll take my traditional Catholic communion wafer, presented to me after transubstantiation and confirmation that it’s the body of Christ, thank you very much!
It isn’t love they neighbor as thyself; the idea is to love as Jesus loved. We all fall short of that mark. Even you, Mr. Sola Scriptura.
November 3, 2008 at 8:05 pm |
I have another question. In my reading and studying I have found information which says that since my husband(Catholic) was not married in the Catholic church our marriage is not recognized by the Church and therefore he should not be taking communion.
My brother in law has attended a non denomination church for 25 years since he was married to a protestant. Every wedding or Mass I have ever been to he takes communion. Is that not correct?
My sister in law who is Catholic and husband(also Catholic) said many non catholics at their mass take communion because they said they are Christians and should be able to take communion, too. The priests are aware of all these situations.
Please excuse any puctuation or spelling mistakes.
I do Love the Lord, but I am not the sharpest crayon in the box.
:)
November 3, 2008 at 9:07 pm |
Dear Happy,
Many priests are afraid to uphold the teachings of the Catholic Church or they are secretly in rebellion. If you and your Catholic husband applied for and received a dispensation from your bishop to marry in a non Catholic Church then all is well. If not your husband should speak to your priest about having your marriage validated in the Catholic Church.
Any Catholic who misses mass because of lazieness, inconvenience, or apathy needs to go to confession before approaching communion. So, my guess is that your brother-in-law should not be receiving communion but he may be totally ignorant of this fact because for 40 years children and adults have very, very often NOT been taught authentic Catholic doctrine. So all of these issues must be dealt with with great charity and prayer in order that they may all be drawn back to faithful Catholic practice.
Non-Catholics are not to be admitted to communion in a Catholic Church even if they are devout Protestant Christians. But as I said, many priests are in rebellion/dissent to Catholic teaching and omit asking non Catholics not to to come for communion. This “teaches” the faithful heresy without using a word.
I have been Catholic for 9 years now. You might find my conversion story helpful as you consider the teachings of the Catholic Church. You can find it here– >My conversion.
November 3, 2008 at 9:56 pm |
bhfu
I find your story facinating! Thanks so much! Yes, I have so many questions and there are alot of simularities in our stories! I started with Bethel and have followed with many many years of bible study. I am left hanging with a whole lot of questions!
I also have found so many misleading beliefs(sadly) on the Catholic Church. In my quest to find the truth, many things have been uncovered. My mother attended a pastoral school which was led by a nun. Mom and her are dear friends and she has such a deep love and respect for Sister Mary! Fortunately, I can’t think of many people who would really give me a hard time if I converted to the Catholic Church!
I find the Eucharist is actually the thing that draws me in the most. I feel sad sometimes after Mass because I have no problem with that belief and I want to share in it! I always go down with my family for a blessing and everyone is so kind. I have never felt like anyone was looking at me and saying”what are you doing here”. That was one thing I heard that I would not be welcome there. So not true! It is a beautiful service and I enjoy everytime I go! Of course, I enjoy worshipping the Lord,period!
Thank you for your kind answers. I will find the reading material you suggested. Anything else you might find helpful in my search?
Blessings :)
November 3, 2008 at 11:01 pm |
I would suggest that you go ahead and start in an RCIA program as an inquirerer at your parish. Just make an appt and talk to your priest about the whole process and what your options are. It should be no pressure. They allow you to stay in until you are ready to proceed to the next level. If you are drawn by the Jesus Christ in the EUCHARIST He is CALLING you!
I did all my own research and did not approach the RCIA director until I was completely sure I wanted to enter the Catholic Church and then I had to wait nearly 9 months until the next Easter. But, whatever you do, the wait is so worth it and the whole process is so BEAUTIFUL and WELCOMING!
November 19, 2008 at 2:47 am |
Hello Father J. Did you know that recently several Catholic dialogue meetings were held and that the Catholic Church along with the Pope have announced that those in the International Methodist Communion and three different lutheran communions (I forgot their names so you might want to look them up, problably just google what I have said); anyways, are now allowed to recieve communion with us. Both our Church and these four groups have also recognized each others baptisms.
P.S. I recommend joining Catholic Answers Forum or EWTN to find what I am talking about.
November 19, 2008 at 3:23 am |
Truth, we are going to need a better source for that. Sadly, I suspect you are mistaken here.
Part of inter-communion allowance is to have identical teaching on the Eucharist… This includes, how it is confected. Methodists and Lutherans (of just about any stripe) do not share in the belief that priesthood is essential, or how priesthood is conferred.
Father J and I are pretty much blog addicts. This one, we would have heard about.
November 19, 2008 at 3:10 pm |
I only wish. I have not given up certainly(thanks BFHU!) But, because of my divorce status am afraid that conversion might not be possible.:(
My marriage was performed at the justice of the peace so I don’t know if that will help with finding that it was not sacramental. I have a meeting next week.
Please continue to pray for myself and my family on this journey.
Thank you.
November 19, 2008 at 3:38 pm |
BFHU: Of course, He is always with us spiritually, but He is in us in a physical bodily presence when we receive Him in Holy Communion. Why wouldn’t every Christian want all of Jesus that He offers us?
pretty much says it all!:)
November 19, 2008 at 6:45 pm |
Your hunger and thirst for Righteousness Himself is edifying. Love and prayers, Happy.
November 19, 2008 at 8:47 pm |
The “news” about the three Lutheran communions (in the United States, the three groups are represented by Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod, Missouri-Synod, and Evangelical Lutheran Church in America) would *really* be news, since WELS and Missouri-Synod have closed communion — even Lutherans from other Lutheran bodies are not welcome at their altars. Also, my recollection is that Missouri-Synod (and the international body to which they belong) were not a party to the agreement on Justification a few years back.
November 23, 2008 at 12:54 am |
This is a very new comment to an old post. But I simply have one question, what does the Catholic church have to say with regard to protestants who do believe that Christ is truly present in the Eucharist? I have been a protestant all my life AND I have always believed and been taught Christ’s real presence in the Eucharist. What say ye to that?
Grace & peace,
A.T.
November 23, 2008 at 6:24 am |
AT
Are you Lutheran or Anglican/Episcopalian?
November 29, 2008 at 5:56 pm |
I have been to Catholic funeral masses that has the presiding priest offer communion to anyone who wishes to partake, Catholic or not. I would make an assumption that some of the communicants may not have been catholic.
Any comments, is this different from any non-catholic receiving communion at a regular Sunday mass?
November 29, 2008 at 6:48 pm |
No, there is no difference.
The priest is wrong, especially if he openly and explicitly offered communion to everyone regardless of their faith. This would be a sin of commission on the priest’s part.
I have witnessed a priest, fail to remind non-Catholics not to approach communion at weddings and funerals. This could be an innocent oversight or purposeful sin of ommission in order to accomplish a similar goal as the priest Ronald mentioned.
These priests, who encourage non-Catholic communion in the Catholic Church, have decided that they know better than the Pope and the Church. My own husband, who is not Catholic, received communion in our parish church b/c of what one of our priests said, on Easter Sunday, no less!
The degree of judgment visited upon those who are innocently lured into receiving communion by errant priests is known only to God. Unless there are priests or other theologians with more information about this than I have.
November 29, 2008 at 9:38 pm |
today we are told christ lives within us. dear God thru Jesus in me.
December 13, 2008 at 6:20 pm |
Dear Friends,
An interesting debate of which is currently affecting me – I’m a protestant refused commiunion when occasionally in my wife’s Roman Catholic church.
I absolutely understand the comments about being in ‘communion’ with the whole church – good argument.
However, the trouble is at least here in the UK it just smacks of sectarianism as I know many Roman Catholics some of whom I work with in the health care profession who do not follow R.C’s teachings on marriage/divorce, contraception, immaculate conception (many don’t even know what it is…..)
Priests are not stupid men they must know this is the case..?
Yet every Sunday these people receive communion in some God-fearing way (cradle to grave catholics) I find this confusing, without wishing to cause any of you offense in any way.
Great site,
Yours W.
December 14, 2008 at 4:23 am |
Wycliffe,
Sigh…..what you say is true in my parish as well. If the people are truly ignorant of the fact that they should not present themselves for communion it is unfortunate and the priest is responsible to be teaching his flock
If anyone knows they should not be receiving communion they add sacrilege to their other sins. But for yourself, obedience is better than sacrifice. You can pray to receive Spiritual communion and remain obedient to God and receive all the graces He wishes to give you, His obedient son.
There are set prayers for Spiritual communion and Catholics are encouraged to pray for this many times even though they are able to receive Holy Communion at mass. But you can also just make your own prayer to God for the graces of Spiritual communion.
December 14, 2008 at 4:25 am |
You know you’re not supposed to take communion as you’re not a member of the church; you may not know the true situation with regard to those who don’t follow the church’s teachings as they may not have much of a religious education or may confess their sins regularly. No way of knowing and likely no way of the priest knowing for certain.
December 15, 2008 at 5:33 pm |
This comment that Wycliffe 36 made was what I was trying to get at (perhaps quite poorly!) with my example of my husbands x wife. It was not an attempt to single her out, or make judgement which is MOST CERTAINLY not my place to make. It was in knowing all of the people that i know and the more I read and follow R.C’s teachings, I am not sure anyone should be taking communion.
This is not an attack on these people, just an observation.
I am not sure if I complete RCIA I am qualified to take it!
The thing that is sad now though is, it is my greatest desire!
I know so many cradle Catholics that take so much for granted!
So blessed are they…..I want to follow the rules, I want to be worthy and I want to partake of the Eucharist!
And yes, Wycliffe, it is a great site!
Thanks to all for your insight and gracious answers!
Many Blessings this Wonderful Season!
December 15, 2008 at 6:45 pm |
The lay faithful in the Catholic Church, especially in the West, have been sheep without shepherds in so very many parishes. Of course there are faithful shepherds also doing all they can to lead their flock. This decline is cyclic the historians say and we are approaching the time of revival it would seem. So, hang in there, Happy Jesus is calling you through John the Baptist…
Prepare the Way of the Lord.
December 15, 2008 at 7:02 pm |
No worries! I am hanging in….it is certainly a powerful call and not one I could ever dismiss!
Please continue to pray for my journey! Thank you.
December 15, 2008 at 10:00 pm |
Thanks for the reply both. This is an interesting debate.
Eucharist is a very special gift given to us by our Lord. For me and for my R.C wife also it really is what s in ones heart that counts.
Happy – you sound like you have given this much thought. I’d say God would indeed have faith in you my friend…. have you ever heard the following poem?
‘They drew a circle that shut me out,
Heretic rebel a thing to flout,
But love and I had the wit to win,
So we drew a circle that took them in!’
Partake in the Eucharist in prayerful consideration as God’s grace and unconditional love exceeds what ever we could possibly think, and it’s only when we feel truly unworthy do we really appreciate and see God’s loving forgiveness at work.
My Prayers are indeed with you.
Yours Wycliffe
December 17, 2008 at 5:23 pm |
One more question for anyone. Does my annullment need to be granted before starting RCIA? My husbands took about a year and this could run into a year from now which would slow my process.
I wondered since the beginning is the inquiry period maybe you don’t have to have your anullment complete?
Thanks for your answers
December 17, 2008 at 6:13 pm |
No you do not need to wait. RCIA can take a year or so ideally–2 years is recommended but I think that is for a person with no Christian background. But you can start while the annulment is processed.
December 17, 2008 at 9:36 pm |
Since Christ Himself has said,
Thank You Bfhu for your encourgement, answers and support!Thank you Wycliffe, for your prayers as well.
I am thrilled that this journey has begun
“This is My Body”
who shall dare to doubt that it is His Body?”
St. Cyril of Jerusalem
**This is an encourgment I recieved,
“Know that the prayers of a 65 million Catholics in the United States and the 1.2 Billion Catholics around the world are with you as you complete your journey. Best wishes!”
Sounds good to me!
Merry Christmas to you all!
December 17, 2008 at 9:39 pm |
Whoops… my thank you got in the way!
The quote is:
Since Christ Himself has said,
“This is My Body”
who shall dare to doubt that it is HIS Body?”
St. Cyril of Jersusalem
December 17, 2008 at 9:49 pm |
Dear All,
I’m fascinated by the RICA course and what is entailed ? I personally get the jitters at ‘Christian’ initiation courses!
I’ll explain; as a theology graduate I feel that questioning is an imperative part of discovering the subjective Christian ‘truth’.
I’m not against courses per se – I am a very committed Christian, but it’s through finding the truth for me (self discovery) that has led me to Christianity and not following the masses!
The Catholic Church does not in my experience welcome open debate. That’s why I value this site. I have several times invited my wife’s priest to discuss the eucharist to no avail. Hans Kung the Catholic churches greatest theologian worries about this, I do too.
I wonder what others think?
With the very greatest of respect I wonder what an itinerant carpenter, tent maker, fishermen and prostitute would make of the hoops one needs to jump through to partake at the Lords table. I am of course being polemical…
December 18, 2008 at 12:21 am |
Wycliffe, you do know that there has always been a process, right? Over time it has evolved. Catholic children are typically educated in their religion from the time they’re in school through confirmation; adult classes present the same material in a shorter time and the sacraments take place on the same occasion rather than on three separate occasions. If valid baptism has previously taken place, then only confirmation, first confession/reconciliation and first communion are needed.
Christian truth isn’t subjective. Truth is truth.
December 18, 2008 at 3:14 am |
Just curious — this whole thread has focused on non-Catholics receiving communion at Catholic altars.
What does the Catholic church teach about Catholics who receive at eucharistic celebrations in Methodist, Lutheran, Episcopal, Old Catholic churches??
December 18, 2008 at 6:15 am |
That is a big no no.
December 18, 2008 at 1:01 pm |
Hi Nan,
Thanks for your response, most interesting.
I’m not sure I could go along with the understanding of one fundamental truth as I feel it’s a little more complicated, even though I confess to the Christian doctrine and way of life.
I do feel truth has to be interpreted – I don’t believe in absolutes. The truth is I’m married to the most beautiful women in the world and yet my best friend politely disagrees! My Jewish friend Neil does not accept the divinity of Jesus as the truth. I hold to the truth that Leicester Tigers are the greatest rugby team in the UK yet my social worker friend Adam agues that it’s Bath….I do not believe it to be the truth that Noah built an ark yet the message still has as much meaning..
Have you not explained the reasoning for this, namely: religious education – “give me the child and I’ll show you the man” I’m not a big fan of religious education having seen the issues at first hand in Ireland (my wife is Irish as well as beautiful!)
With adults of it is obviously different as adults will (or at least should) always question whatever they are taught, I wonder if that is why the RC put so much effort into ensuring Catholic childhood education.
I’d value your thoughts, thanks for engaging with me.
Yours kindly
W.
December 18, 2008 at 3:47 pm |
Hello, W.
I know that you addressed this to Nan and you will get a good reply.
I just wanted to add my twist on Truth.
The reason I will be converting to the church, because in the Protestant world(Im talking several different denominations) I am tired of having churches form God to fit the person. Let’s make Him warm and fuzzy and comfortable.What kind of music do you like? You don’t like this well we will change it…. it is all about YOU after all!Lets wear what ever we want to service (Pj’s, house slippers… barefoot,)and drink our coffee througout worship and eat doughtnuts…. Let’s change up the childrens ministry……puppet shows and video games….. it’s ok if they misbehave, Jesus loves them just like they are…… Learn scripture?! Well … that’s no fun! Oh, well honey we want you to have FUN!!!! Jesus is Fun!!!!! I have adult friends who have gone to church after church after church looking for a place where they are FED. We are just not Fed here. It is all about ME you know!
Well, I say NO! It is all about God. I love the unchanging Church! Truth is truth. My son has to learn 30 prayers before Christmas. He is struggling. He probably wishes he belonged to one of those churches where they play video games, don’t learn scripture and have a great time. He is 10 and his Christian education is very important even though he might not know it right now! But, the foundation is being layed!
Of course, I am not saying all Protestant churches are like this. There are wonderful churches, wonderful people, loving the Lord and doing His work. This is just my point of view and where I am.
Many Blessings to you, :)
December 19, 2008 at 5:01 am |
W, much grace is added as we go through the education process. Keep in mind that I lack the deep theological knowledge of some contributors here. Small children accept things, teenagers don’t so I don’t think your theory holds water. At some point you have to decide what you believe. In my case, when I was younger, I had issues with some church teachings. I no longer have the same issues, though I struggle with certain things. I won’t identify those things because that’s between me and whichever priest is in confession.
The truths you used as examples are not at all the same (Jewish friend notwithstanding). You can’t equate the subjectivity of beauty or the appeal of a sports team with the truth of God. That’s completely absurd. As far as Noah is concerned, I don’t think it matters whether we find the ark or get a ship’s manifest conclusively showing whether or not the unicorn made it aboard.
Truth? I know for a fact that Jesus died on the cross for the forgiveness of my sins. I have always believed this to be true, but now, I know it’s a fact.
Happy, I firmly believe that guitars should be banned from church and that music should have been composed between the 16th and 18th centuries though can tolerate more recent music, so long as Mass is without any, um, innovations.
December 19, 2008 at 3:15 pm |
Nan, I agree. I love the reverence of Mass. Beautiful! But, I am old so maybe that explains it!
I think that when that solid foundation and groundwork is put down as children, even if some stray, they will come back.
I have friends who say, “Well I don’t want to force my kids to be involved in church, they may hate it and hate me when they grow up!” Yikes! Talk about Satan at work here. I say that is like saying ” I don’t want to force my kids to eat vegtables, they may hate them when they grow up”.
From what I see in the Catholic church, from the beginning the truth is taught and that foundation is set. Then as adults they can grow and expand on it.
December 19, 2008 at 5:03 pm |
Dear Nan and Happy,
This is most interesting.
Happy: I absolutely get you point and that is why I have some sympathy with the Catholic Church, Historicity of the church is indeed a powerful pull. Tradition is important. However, I do believe that the church has to move with the times, I’m not sure where you reside but here in the UK secularism is the presiding ‘religion’ and in many way I feel the church has to adopt new Christian philosophies as the church always has done throughout history (sometimes to instill fear into the public) to ensure it remains contemporary and thus get the ‘message’ across…. have you ever read Don Cupitt? He writes very well on this subject.
N.B: I too would ban guitars from worship – with pitch forks and flaming touches!!
Nan: I was perhaps being a tad flippant with my examples I admit I wish not to cause offence; however my point is that there really is a very real difference between relative truth and absolute truth. Absolute truth I fear can not be substantiated as it depends wholly on where you are standing at the time for example you may believe it to be the absolute truth that Jesus died on a cross for your sins but this is not universally believed – thus is not absolute but more relative – it’s true for you! (and me) so by definition has to be subjective.
We all interpret language differently; God will always be interpreted differently depending on who and where you are as well as how you are feeling. That is not to say God changes – but peoples interpretations will and always have changed since time began as cultures the environment and most importantly science affect how we view the world. Why should God not be allowed to evolve?
This sounds like philosophical jargon, but it does explain more point more appositely, and I see little controversy here, as we live by faith, not absolutes.
I’m very happy to be allowed to share in conversation with you as well as share my thoughts and learn from you and your experiences.
In brother in Christ
W36.
December 19, 2008 at 5:05 pm |
it me above – not too bad at theology – terrible with computers!!
December 21, 2008 at 2:51 am |
Wycliffe, it’s completely fine for the church to be out of step with the times and not to be contemporary. I live in a hotbed of liberalism and there are churches in which Mass is so watered down and modernized that I don’t feel as though I’ve actually attended Mass… Thankfully, I found a safe haven from modernity and am even more thankful to have become aware that the Archdiocese has a Department of Faith, the objective of which appears to be Liturgical correctness. Ideally, one should be able to attend a Roman Catholic Mass (or any of the other 20-some sui juris churches in Communion with Rome) and be unable to differentiate between one church and another, regardless of local language.
Happy, I think the non-forcers are the ones whose kids say they’re Catholic but don’t act like it.
December 22, 2008 at 2:26 pm |
Nan, I will respectfully disagree with one part of your post. As a non-Catholic, I have attended many, many Catholic Masses with my wife (who is). A Maronite service in St. Louis, with a mix of traditional chant and contemporary songs; St. John Cantius in Chicago, with wonderful (traditional) music, including a healthy dose of Gregorian chant, but still Novus Ordo; a Tridentine celebration in Atlanta with nothing but chant and Renaissance polyphony; an Anglican Use service with some schlocky 19th c. hymns; and a parish in Louisville with a contemporary music ensemble (in a very contemporary space) that played beautifully. What impresses me about the Catholic church is its ability to embrace all of these communities as “Catholic.”
(And I can’t wait for Pope Benedict to celebrate the Zaire rite).
December 22, 2008 at 3:12 pm |
Nan,
Exactly, It doesn’t matter which Mass we go to in our area, I know EXACTLY what to expect and I love that.
The ones I was speaking of were mainly in the protestant group. Most of our friends and family never miss Mass and the kids take it very seriously. (Around us,anyway!) My children, coming from Protestant faith, at first were reluctant to go to Mass. As time goes by they have seen the benefits to the Catholic church and now chose go even if they had an option. I can say, everything the Church has done for them has been nothing but positive.
December 22, 2008 at 8:58 pm |
John,
Perhaps we could make a distinction between “communities” and “rites.” The Church certainly ought to accept all legitimate and organically developed rites. But it is not the case that the way that every community celebrates the Eucharist is good. The Church, within her rites, has certain rules and preferences which define what the excellence of that rite is.
In the Roman rite, for instance, there is a preference for Latin, Gregorian chant and polyphony. People who go away from sacred music towards a popular idiom are deviating from what makes the Roman rite excellent, for instance. More concretely, people who disobey the rubrics which prescribe how one is to offer Mass make defects in the liturgy.
I would imagine that Nan is especially concerned with those people who, in a misguided attempt to make the liturgy relevant or inclusive, alter the rubrics or ignore them.
That being said, the styles you mention can be done according to rubrics (without breaking any positive rules), even if some of them are further away from the ideal (e.g., a ‘contemporary’ service usually moves away from the Church’s preference for Latin and Gregorian chant).
-Rob
December 23, 2008 at 3:12 am |
John,
Rob is correct, I’m speaking only of the Roman Rite Novus Ordo Mass. This is the one to which I was exposed as a child and I have a strong preference for Mass to remain as it was when I was a child; appropriate liturgical music, Mass straight up without a twist. I don’t like modern church architecture, either and am currently worshipping at the Cathedral. It looks like a church, acts like a church and the priests are normal.
I can’t comment on either Tridentine or Anglican use but can tell you that your Louisville experience wouldn’t have been my cup of tea due to modernity in architecture and music.
Last year during holy week, I endured the following: guitars, modern music, pita bread and liturgical dancers. I also witnessed full immersion baptism in a holy water hot tub. These are things to which I prefer never to be exposed again.
I have been to the Maronites and am aware that they evolved separately for 400 years, so while some parts of their liturgy are familiar to me, others aren’t; I have also been to Divine Liturgy both with the Greek Catholics and the Orthodox(same program). I went to an anniversary Mass at the Greek Catholic church and it was lovely; Belarusian priest, Old Church Slavonic, Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, grandpa’s church. It was perfect. If they always had their liturgy entirely in Old Church Slavonic, I’d have choices to make. Since their liturgy doesn’t hold the same fascination for me in English, I can’t be lured to their church.
I’m very definite in my preferences for Mass and don’t want things that don’t belong. I shouldn’t leave a Catholic church wondering if I had just gone to Mass and was that church Catholic.
As I mentioned above, I do live in an area with churches that are nationally known to be liturgically incorrect and will be seeing liturgists.
December 23, 2008 at 2:41 pm |
Nan — if guitars, modern music, real bread and liturgical dance are the worst you’ve seen, you’re lucky! My wife’s parish, fairly conservative, regularly does full immersion baptisms.
My own preference for Sunday after Sunday attendance would be a bilingual Novus Ordo, with a mix of music I don’t think Latin and Gregorian chant guarantee good liturgy, any more than an occasional David Haas song creates bad liturgy.
And, again, as a non-Catholic, I admire the diversity of rites, and worship styles within the Roman Rite, that the church has. But I would agree that much silliness can still be found.
December 23, 2008 at 6:42 pm |
John,
Full immersion baptism remains a valid and licit form of baptism, as far as I know. However, it is often preferred out of a false archaeologizing motive, i.e., people who want to imitate the purity of the most ancient practices. This tendency tends to depreciate legitimate developments in the Church as being less authentic. Now, if that is the reasoning behind it, it is certainly wrong. But without any knowledge of their reasons, I cannot judge. The real problems are logistical and circumstantial. Namely, how can this be done with respect to the solemnity of the liturgy, the modesty of those involved, and the health of those involved? I would gently suggest that these are problems which most contemporary American parishes cannot overcome, and so give the nod to the practice of baptism by pouring.
If, as Nan suggests, the baptismal font is a glorified hot tub, it does seem to be rather contrary to the solemnity proper to the liturgy.
As for the bread– it is illicit to use leavened bread in the Latin rite. It is also unadvisable to use bread which is very crumbly (pita-like bread?) because it offers a large chance that sacrilege will occur, because the pieces will easily break off and fall to the ground. Since the Latin rite is currently allowing communion in the hands by indult, it is all the more so inadvisable– the combination of the two would seem to greatly increase the chance of profanation of the most Sacred Host.
Although Eucharistic piety has certainly been hit very hard in the post-Vatican II period, it isn’t any different as a matter of fact, and we need to have the greatest love and concern for the Eucharist. The casual attitude that many have towards the Eucharist is simply misplaced.
“My own preference for Sunday after Sunday attendance would be a bilingual Novus Ordo, with a mix of music I don’t think Latin and Gregorian chant guarantee good liturgy, any more than an occasional David Haas song creates bad liturgy.”
Good can be defined in at least two ways. The first one would be to focus more subjectively, i.e. that the good liturgy is the one which produces the most affection, compunction, etc. in the congregant. If this is the case, perhaps your statement can hold up. But the more important, second, sense is to say that that which is good has the “perfections” proper to it, and is “excellent,” i.e. it does what is proper to it and it does it well. The perfections proper to the Mass include following the rubrics, and the other instructions of the Church. Objectively, then, an “excellent” liturgy is one which follows all the rubrics and instructions of the Church. But if this is the case, then a Mass which is sung and which gives preference to Gregorian chant is more excellent than a Mass which is not sung, and which only has hymns for music, for the first Mass has the perfections proper to the Mass.
The first sense of good is not necessarily all-important, and indeed if we focus too much on how the individual congregant *feels* we risk being pulled into that self-enclosed circle of self-affirmative worship of the golden calf, which Ratzinger adroitly warns about in his “Spirit of the Liturgy.”
God bless,
Rob
December 24, 2008 at 4:26 am |
Robert, I know of two churches whose baptismal fonts are hot tubs; in one case, I assume it to be so based on size and shape. At Easter Vigil last year at the other church, we were instructed at one point to go and immerse our hands in the water…whereupon I concluded it’s a hot tub. I think you hit the nail on the head with the false archaeologizing because that’s exactly why I think they use pita bread.
John, different rites at different sui juris churches is one thing; however, Novus Ordo Mass should still be Novus Ordo Mass no matter where it is. I have certain expectations of Mass and am happy to live in an area in which it’s possible to find a place of worship the architecture of which I find pleasing, that has priests who seem holy and celebrate Mass in a manner that I find acceptable.
December 25, 2008 at 2:00 am |
I find this conversation both fascinating and discouraging. When I go to midnight mass tonight (since it is Christmas Eve and I have to work until 11:30 – hospitals never close), I will not partake because it would be disrespectful. I had a friend who is taking sinner class give me a rundown on what I should do/not do because I want to be respectful in the house of God.
I am saddened by the judgmental attitude so many of the posters here have exposed toward Protestants. I believe that (in brief) Jesus Christ is the Son of God, born to the virgin Mary in fulfilment of prophecy, that he was sinless, was crucified and died as a proxy for sinful humanity, that three days later he fulfilled prophecy again by rising from the dead, and then ascended to heaven where he now sits at the right hand of God. Are your beliefs truly different from mine? For those of you who have been so harsh toward Protestants, remember that Christ himself dined with prostitutes, tax collectors, and others at the bottom of the social scene. He didn’t sit there beating them over the head telling them how much greater he was than they were, he LOVED them into a relationship with him. Piousness will not win hearts. It will turn them away. Judgment is the job of the Holy Spirit.
And FYI, my church performs immersion baptism. We have a small square pool about the size of a hot tub (i.e., just big enough for two people) in our sanctuary. The water is chlorinated for hygine reasons and heated to keep the pastor from catching his death of cold, but it certainly is not a hot tub! We like the concept of immersion because of the death/life symbolism – you go under the water (death to the old sinful self) and come up a new person in Christ. We don’t believe this is the only way to baptize, just the one we chose.
December 25, 2008 at 2:05 am |
I forgot to mention that our full immersion baptism is performed fully clothed – everyone wears shorts and a shirt, and as soon as they start to get out of the water someone wraps a huge towel around them to preserve modesty.
December 26, 2008 at 3:35 pm |
We believe exactly as you stated regarding our salvation. But of course we believe even more. I applaud you for your respect for Catholic rules for reception of the Eucharist. God will surely bless your love and obedience. In the future you can pray for the graces of spiritual communion during the time others are receiving.
Full immersion is a fuller sign of baptism but not mandatory of course.
December 26, 2008 at 6:25 pm |
Hi Cara,
yes, my belief as you have stated as well. I mean no offense to any Catholic or Protestant, as I am Protestant and my journey is leading me to become Catholic. That is just where I am. I think you will find that there may be a few offensive things said by some, you will not see that from any of the authors or the majority of people who post. Your questions and comments will be observed and answered with the utmost respect!
There is a lot of great information here!
May you be blessed!
:)
December 26, 2008 at 10:14 pm |
Cara, as I have minimal information regarding Protestants and their traditions, save the knowledge that what they are protesting is Catholicism and that a) Martin Luther eliminated all with which he disagreed about the Catholic church, including several books of the Bible and that b) Henry VIII stole assets from the church and started his own church when the pope refused to grant him a divorce. My posts are related to my experiences in the Catholic church, some of which have not met my needs.
What they said and that we believe in the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist.
December 26, 2008 at 11:07 pm |
Nan, I’d have to say that 99% of people who identify themselves as Protestants aren’t protesting anything about Catholicism – and in fact know very little about it. Most of them probably don’t know much about Luther, and few know anything about Henry VIII. Protestant churches by and large don’t teach much about church history. I believe that is more of a focus in the Catholic church. In my church you don’t learn church history or denominational differences unless you are taking a membership class.
bhfu, that’s exactly what I did during that part of the service! I found the service fascinating, and had to keep bringing my focus back to the reason I was there rather than paying attention to all the details. My one question is this – why does a phone ring while the priest is preparing the Host? (Okay, yes, I’m sure it wasn’t a phone ringing but it sounded EXACTLY like it!)
And thanks, happy. You certainly seem to live up to your name here!
December 26, 2008 at 11:19 pm |
Cara,
It’s possible that someone forgot to turn their phone off… but if you are referring to the elevation of the Host after the consecration (”This is my Body”) or the elevation of the Chalice after the consecration (”This is the cup of my Blood”) then it was probably a set of communion bells being rung by servers.
This webpage at adoremus.org offers some explanations for the source and meaning of altar bells.
http://www.adoremus.org/0305SantusBells.html
Of course, I could be “cute” with my answer and say: indeed, it is a phone– and God is calling, asking you to join the Church. :)
Thanks for stopping by and commenting. God bless you.
-Rob
December 27, 2008 at 2:37 am |
Hi Cara,
Just curious what denomination do you belong to? But you are right when I think about it…that most Protestant churches dont protest the Catholic Church actively but my experience was in several different denominations..Calvary Chapel, Evangelical Free, Baptist and Charismatic there was teaching such as:
“Here we see Jesus had brothers and sisters so Mary and Joseph had children after Jesus so Mary was not a perpetual virgin.”
or
“This verse says to call no man “Father” referring to a religious leader”
“And this verse says to be absent from the body is to be with Christ so there can’t be any Purgatory.”
I really can’t remember if the Catholic Church was always mentioned by name or just innuendo. Probably a little of both but we KNEW what church was being referred to even if it wasn’t named. But perhaps all denominations are not like what i experienced.
Some or maybe most of the hostility you note from some Catholics is a result of the prejudice they have experienced from Protestant friends and family who assume they worship idols, Mary and the Saints; are not really saved or even Christian; don’t know, respect, or have a clue what is in the Bible etc. I found out this was all misinformation and became convinced that the Catholic Church was the historic Church founded by none other than Jesus Christ Himself. So, I could do no other…I had to enter her.
December 27, 2008 at 3:08 am |
Cara,
Hard to believe that people don’t know the history of their own church!
Protestants frequently complain about aspects of Catholicism with which they disagree or don’t understand, such as not having open communion, not having married priests, not ordaining women, not allowing abortion or birth control and not supporting gay relationships.
I can’t tell you how often I hear these sorts of complaints from protestants…then again, I hear many of the same complaints from those who claim to be Catholic
December 29, 2008 at 10:50 pm |
Nan & Cara,
To show willing, and against my better judgement, I attended my wife’s Catholic midnight mass and was surprised, actually amazed to hear the priest explain that all are welcome to the table of the Lord as we all worship the same God – the God of the Protestants, Muslims (I know!!) and Jews.
Then gave a sermon loosely on homosexuality distancing himself from the pope! Jesus was born for all irrespective of gender, race or religion.
The church was packed and everyone received communion, children welcome, and everyone was then given a gift of sweets and a candle following. Quite beautiful and why the hell not?
W.36
December 30, 2008 at 1:19 am |
Why the hell not? Oh, I don’t know, something about going against the leadership of the Pope and not following Catholic teaching! That’s absolutely horrible! I pray that your wife’s parish gets a new priest, who follows Catholic doctrine and the leadership of the Pope.
Children are always welcome.
Cara, I hope you didn’t have a similar experience on Christmas Eve. This isn’t how it really works.
December 30, 2008 at 3:27 am |
bfhu, my church is Evangelical Free. I’m sorry you had such negative experiences. As you and I both know, if you were to judge Christianity by Christians no one would ever become one!
Nan, I agree. But I think that’s a symptom of our lazy American culture – “don’t bother me with the boring past, just tell me what I can get out of the here and now.” Many Protestant churches have done away with Sunday School (at least for adults), so there is no forum within which to teach church history. And my experience on Christmas Eve was nice – can’t say the priest was the best teacher ever, but God had something to say to me through him anyway.
Gee W.36, seems to me the Bible says something about topics like homosexuality and whether or not there is only one way to God… Specifically that homosexuality is a sin and there IS only one way to God.
December 30, 2008 at 4:02 am |
Cara, my church has continuing programming throughout the year for all adults. They have lectures, discussions and prayer-centered programs. This is separate from the Rite of Christian Initiation for Adults classes which are designed for people who are interested in becoming Catholic and obtaining the sacraments.
I’m glad you heard from God. Priests are all different and people always have preferences; if it was up to me, I’d adjust my mass attendance to see my favorite priest. Since my church doesn’t publish a schedule, that isn’t an option, but I’d be disappointed if that priest was on the schedule and it had changed. I’d also lose a lot because each priest offers something different; I went to Mass and saw that I’d missed my favorite, but if I had gone to his Mass, I’d have lost out on something better. In that instance, the priest reminded me of the priest from my childhood, and it was fun as this isn’t one of the priests in the normal rotation. In any case, I learn something different from each priest so would narrow my learning opportunities if I tried only to go to Mass with the one priest.
December 30, 2008 at 4:29 am |
Cara,
Oh, well, what do you know? I was in an EV Free Church too for the last 17 years before my conversion to the Catholic Church. Before that southern Baptist, before that Charismatic, Calvary Chapel, and I grew up in Dutch Reformed at what is now the Chrystal Cathedral. It wasn’t a negative experience at the time b/c I just thought I was being taught the truth about the Catholic Church.
But once I found out what the Catholic Church actually believed, I was very annoyed that so much misinformation was passed on to me by people I trusted to have done the research…but then I realized they were trusting others, who trusted others and someone along the line did not do the proper research.
January 2, 2009 at 6:15 pm |
Nan,
Your understanding of communion is not scriptural and you really should research the historicity of communion.
It was lovely, and as for the Pope………
I pray for you.
January 3, 2009 at 2:41 am |
Wycliffe, I have never claimed to have beyond a 7-year-old’s theological education; however, the Catholic church does not have open communion; everyone being welcome does not mean that communion is given to everyone. Your wife’s church is not properly dispensing communion if it goes to everyone.
Protestantism uses sola scriptura, Catholicism doesn’t; whether I have a scriptural understanding of communion or not , I would also need to understand tradition with regard to communion as tradition was passed from Jesus to the Apostles and only centuries later was scripture canonized.
Everyone is welcome in the church and is welcome to have a blessing. The rest? It’s conditional, based on beliefs; one must first believe in the real presence of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist. After that? Catholic tradition requires sacraments including baptism, confession/reconciliation, first communion and historically confirmation (the order has been reversed for children so confirmation comes later to facilitate understanding). But that’s not all; you must also be in a state of grace, which means a continuation of the confession/communion cycle. Only then should someone take communion.
If the priest truly distanced himself from the Pope, then he isn’t playing follow the leader, which is part of what he agreed to when he became a priest.
January 3, 2009 at 4:05 pm |
Good point well put – I was rude and I DO apologise to you personally Nan, especially as this is not a private correspondence. Builders not destroyers be.. I should know better, I’m sorry.
It was a nice service, however the follow the leader point you make is a good debate to be held.
The sacraments not withstanding; Protestantism does, I believe, benefits from a certain freedom of clergy positions, education and beliefs – where else could a radical like me go? I do respect the catholic church for having a strict ‘party line’ but the catholic church is so big and wide is it really possible to play follow the leader in so many differing cultures and educations?
January 3, 2009 at 10:30 pm |
Apology accepted.
The Catholic Church is a hierarchical organization, not a democracy; a basic premise of the priesthood is to submit to the Pope’s authority through Apostolic Succession, as it comes down to parishes through Archbishop and Bishop. Historically there was less education than there is today and information was provided through statues and stained glass windows, which were designed to educate the illiterate by showing attributes of saints which made them easily identifiable.
Another thing about the Catholic church is the constancy of it; I should be able to go to Latin Rite Mass anywhere and understand it, no matter the language or country of origin. Why? Because the format is the same. It’s the people who add non-standard elements that create problems.
The Catholic church has always covered a lot of cultural ground but does have room for some cultural elements specific to a given population. There is a church here that ministers to the Hmong population and is staffed by priests from my church. Last Sunday they celebrated the Hmong New Year so we had the weekend guy for 10:00 Mass and they had the associate.
Many other churches in this country originated with communities of various ethnic groups and while the population of the parish may have become more diverse since it was founded, it’s typical for the parish to continue with ethnic celebrations. One well-known example here is the celebration of St. Patrick’s Day, which has gone out of the church and become a secular celebration for all.
I don’t see the problem with playing follow the leader within a diverse group of cultures; that, too, is part of Catholic tradition. Education is important and historically, Priests and Monks were among the most educated, wherever they were. In Maryland, St. John de Matha High is operated by the Trinitarian Order, which is not an order predicated on educating the masses; they educated their own and after enough people in the surrounding area asked them to educate their sons, they ended up with a high school.
Freedom of clergy positions, education and beliefs such as those fostered by Protestantism lead only to fragmentation and splintering of those fragments, which is why there are so many variations involved. I’m by no means an expert on forms of Protestantism, but find it interesting that within my suburb, there are at least 28 Protestant churches in varying denominations and one Catholic church. There always seem to be crises among one group of protestants or another which usually end up creating a new church.
January 5, 2009 at 4:50 pm |
Happy New Year! After a week of vacation it is fun to catch up!
I think the Protestant churches need a lot more of “follow the leader.” I know many who don’t know history of their church and (agreed) most don’t know that they are “protesting” the Catholic Church or that they even started from the Catholic Church. I know many who really,really misunderstand the Catholic Church.
Wycliffe, it saddens me to hear your story whether it is a Catholic Church or not. I feel that in these days and times it is all a bit loosey goosey. Like I said before, too many are trying to make God and Church fit their comfort level. I hope that Mass like the one you attended are very rare.
I believe Truth is not to be tampered with!
When you do study the Eucharist and understand, you know that it is not just “everyone come to the table type thing”. The Church isn’t trying to hurt anyone or make anyone feel left out either. (As I believed in the past!) :)
I am no longer taking communion in my church(it feels empty to me) and of course never have in the Catholic Church. My husband could probably continue without the priest knowing, but, God knows and we want to be obdient.
January 5, 2009 at 9:49 pm |
Hi, happy new year to all too.
Excellent comments I enjoyed them.
I wonder at a scriptural level whether to portray Jesus as an enquirer, a person open to new learnings and insights in not more truthful?
This view has been overlooked and smothered by the church. Anslem reinforcing this tradition because learning implies imperfection, the gospel of Thomas equally; the adolescent Jesus could not be taught in the temple but rather becomes the teacher.
This is still practiced today in the church in reference to ‘follow the leader’. In protestantism there is a democratization of belief which does not encourage one to accept the views that the higher up a person moves in the religious hierarchy the less they have to learn and more they have to teach.
I like this mostly held protestant view; it’s platonic in nature moreover an awakening of the truth itself.
Therefore; the truth of communion is an awakening to the personal truth, a voyage of religious self discovery only this way can it be truly honest.
Latin mass can be beautiful I can not disagree with you however it was only really appropriate for the 1st to 17th century, the church now must adopt a world building activity not a late medieval world view trying to keep alive a world view many do not now recognize.
Happy; I would say All truth has a history and is developed within the human conversation and as language develops truth develops also.
That why I liked what was said by the priest in question; it was about personal honesty to God.
It’s about our faith in God a ‘bottom up’ not ‘top down’ order. Our views and truths and beliefs are constantly being (re)negotiated and by our language…… values ……. thus reconstructing ourselves and attitudes we may have to rethink God’s communion as the world changes around us…..
January 5, 2009 at 10:59 pm |
Wycliff,
Your ideas are not authentic Catholic Theology. They would not even be accepted by most faithful Protestant Christians. Especially your New Age-ish view of Jesus. Please see my post Here about the divinity of Christ.
January 6, 2009 at 3:22 pm |
Wycliffe,
I believe that it is “rethinking God’s communion as the world changes around us” is exactly what has brought me to the Catholic faith. I have a pull to the Eucharist and no longer wish to carry out a symbolic demonstration of it. That is not the only pull for me, though. This is the studying and gathering of many years of information for me. It is a very personal decision and one that each person needs to make for themselves. You are Protestant and your wife Catholic? right. I am Protestant and my husband Catholic. I have an entire lifetime of background in Protestant Church. I knew very little about the Catholic Church. Had I not married a Catholic I may have just stayed on the same religious path. I wonder if it has been a pull to you during your marriage. I have absolutely NO pressure from my husband to become Catholic. ( I did see pleasure when I told him of my intentions and ask for his prayers though!) I personally find it like a breath of fresh air every time I go to Mass.
The thing that concerns me with the world is the attitude of I like to see Jesus as……..fill in the blank.
Kind of like “talledega nights” where he says “I like to picture my Jesus in a tshirt singing lead singer for Lynard Skynard”, Well, you may like to picture Him like that or some may want to picture Him however, but I don’t believe it is a very accurate picture. I see people with new age Jesus, country and western Jesus, Rock and Roll with tatoos Jesus. I mean REALLY!!???? we are talking about our Lord and Saviour here. King of Kings. I think that the world changing and bending God to fit our needs is wrong. We are here to Worship Him. He is our Creator, our Lord, our King. I find it disheartening to here of the priest in your wifes church. I can’t imagine how giving a sermon on homsexuality and not following the pope would edify anyone in the service.
January 24, 2009 at 8:59 am |
I recently attended a Catholic funeral mass and I took Communion. I am a practicing Christian in an Anglo-Catholic traditional church and I do accept the prescence of Christ in the Communion Elements. Many Catholics participate in eceumenical services at my home chuch and it is their personal choice to do so. I made a personal choice, based on my faith to participate more fully in the funeral service of a relative by marriage. My choice, any judgement will be on me and I accept and rejoice in that judgement. I know God to be a loving and forgiving God and came prepared with a contrite heart to receive communion as I do regularly in my own church.I will pray for the priest who unknowingly administered communion to a non-catholic and I know that both he and I will receive the blessings of our Lord Jesus Christ and His forgiveness. Jesus was not concerned about the beliefs, moral fibre or day to day activities of the people He broke bread with. He sort to teach and educate by example.
January 24, 2009 at 6:51 pm |
Christian, that’s so disrespectful!!! And bragging about it? That’s plain nasty.
1. you know that Catholic communion isn’t open to all;
2. you took communion;
3. without being in communion with the church;
4. without having properly confessed (which in the Catholic tradition means to a priest after you’re already Catholic);
5. premeditating the later forgiveness of your upcoming sin;
6. excusing yourself by the behavior of others, who attend services at your church;
7. which has no relation to your behavior;
8. And you knowingly take the priest with you.
Sins aren’t about relativism. Other peoples actions have no bearing on the sinfulness of yours. Especially when you know you’re in a sinful state.
January 24, 2009 at 7:32 pm |
Nan.
I was not bragging about it nor was it premeditated. I came across this site looking, after the event , for information as to whether I had done something wrong. Obviously from reading through the posts I have. It was not intended to be disrespectful.
However you speak of nasty – i think you need to look in a mirror.
January 25, 2009 at 2:34 am |
Christian, there is nothing in your initial post that indicates you were unaware that Catholic communion is restricted. If there had been, my response would’ve been different.
January 25, 2009 at 11:54 am |
To all who might read this I will leave this site (forever) with two things.
1. A couple of verses from one of our Eucharist Hymns this morning.
‘An altar stands within the shrine whereon, once sacrificed
is set immaculate, divine, the Lamb of God, the Christ.
There rich and poor, from countless lands, praise Christ on mystic rood;
there nations reach forth holy hands to take God’s holy food.’
and 2 as the Week of Prayer for Christian Unity draws to a close a poem by Marjorie Dobson entitled Peace is…
Peace is the resolution of conflict as we make our peace.
Peace is the struggle for harmony as we live in peace.
Peace is being set free from anxiety as we are left in peace.
Peace is our Christian calling as we share the peace.
Peace is our blessing from worship as we go in peace.
Peace is God’s final resolution as we rest in peace.
The Peace of the Lord be always with each and everyone on this site.
February 21, 2009 at 3:08 pm |
After reading these posts, I have to agree with JM Happy & especially Christian. I am doing the same. I see alot of catholics here have gotten lost in ritual & lost the true meaning in their faith. How sad. God said, “love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind & soul & love your neighbor as yourself” If you follow this, you will be following all the laws. From reading the posts it appears to me alot of old-time catholics have lost the most important of all, LOVE. How very sad, I would really question whether they should be taking communion in such a state as this if they wouldn’t be bringing judgment upon themselves. God loves us all & we are to love one another, in doing this we are fulfilling all other laws. God bless you’s all!!
February 21, 2009 at 5:42 pm |
After thinking about all that I read here, then researching the facts about history of the first church & the schism & where catholics came from & how they got their beliefs. I see now how they have become so lost, judgmental, closedminded. It’s obvious to me their religion is based or original lies & deceit, & a definite greed for power. I would have to say even power above God. That’s where Lucifer fell from God’s beloved angel to becoming Lucifer. I know realise how much I definitely do not want to partake in this religion at all!! I t sure explains my experiences, my confusion & what I have repeatedly seen of catholics over many years. However I still love you’s all with the love of God in my heart. Jazzz
February 21, 2009 at 6:42 pm |
I also would like to say, catholics believe their church is infallible & can do no wrong, & how much someone would be condemned for taking communion without your consent. Well what happened with the overwhelming repeated sexual abuse of innocent children by supposedly infallible priests. OMG people open your eyes!!!!
February 21, 2009 at 11:22 pm |
Jazzz,
Who did you say was judgemental? The Church is made up of sinnful human beings. You make general denunciations of the Catholic Church without any specifics so there is nothing concrete to respond to.
Have you spoken with charity?
The Catholic Faith is infallible, this means unerring in the teaching of the One, Holy, Apostolic and Catholic FAITH. Anyone who thinks that we think, the members of the Church can do no wrong, makes me LOL :)
Why do you think we have confession…hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
February 22, 2009 at 12:59 am |
I doubt very much that God will be speaking to preists on their judgment day with very much charity?
There has to be justice.
That is the ultimate of all injustices!! I’m sure God sees it that way. Using the name of God & authority as a priest with little children to destroy them like that,
BFHU: I agree.
yet the catholic church seems to have more pity towards these inhumane acts done in the name of God, than towards outsiders who quote “haven’t been baptized in the catholic church”.
It’s funny the word catholic or pope doesn’t appear once in any bible, pretty obvious those were man-made words.
The way you responded made it sound like yea it’s allll ok I guess these preists can just go to confession, that’s what it’s for. This makes me sick to my stomach literally.
I’m outta here.
February 22, 2009 at 1:07 am |
Afterall it doesn’t take someone with 1/4 of a brain to figure this out, it was the Romans who killed Jesus in the first place, it’s not hard to see that’s exactly where the Roman Catholic church comes from, no wonder they’re still hurting God’s children today.
February 22, 2009 at 1:16 am |
Jazzz,
You are really beginning to show your ignorance. You should quit while you’re ahead.
February 22, 2009 at 1:02 pm |
Well I guess you haven’t been following me here, obviously your eyes & ears are closed so there is no point to try here.
February 22, 2009 at 3:05 pm |
Goodbye Jazzz
February 22, 2009 at 8:39 pm |
Dear bfhu, I sincerely apologize here for my anger. I am going to tell you some about me. My husband who just passed away this past August, who was the only man in my life who was ever there for me 100%. He was the kindest, gentlest, giving man I have ever known, to all. Who would defend & help the downcast. My heart breaks that I have lost him, but am very grateful for knowing so much love from such a special person. I truly believe with all my heart he is in heaven, God gave me & my kids strong signs of this. I had just gone to the catholic church & was very interested in becoming catholic & being baptised. But when I spoke to the preist, during our discussion he basically told me that me husband who had died was now in Hell because he had not attended church regularly & done all his church obligations. I have decided to let this go, because I know God is with me & I believe he is in Heaven & helping me. I am sorry if I offended anyone here. Thank-you for responding to me. Jazzz
February 22, 2009 at 9:18 pm |
Jazzz,
Sorry to hear about your loss. Please do not let the opinion of one man ruin what you can find in the Catholic Church. I am also a convert from Protestantism and found absolutely nothing more fulfilling that what we have in Catholicism. Just to clarify what the priest told you, the Church is in the business of saving souls, not condemning them. Satan’s business is condemning souls to Hell. That is why the Church only proclaims who is in Heaven, never who is in Hell. When someone tells you a specific person is in Hell after death that is soley the opinion of one individual and holds no bearing on the hereafter. The Church teaches that God gives everyone exactly what they need to recieve salvation at the time of their death and it is up to them to accept it or reject it. If you feel your husband has been recieved into Heaven then I make every encouragement for you to hold on to that and when you pray be confident that your husband can still make intecessions and hear what you say before God.
February 22, 2009 at 9:44 pm |
Dear Jazzz,
WHOA! Thanks for telling us. I second all that Joel said. Remember too that God wants ALL of HIS CHILDREN in Heaven with Him…ALL. So, we can definitely count on Him to have done all that was necessary to make sure your husband would be in Heaven. God Bless you as walk this shadow of death XOXOXO.
February 22, 2009 at 10:06 pm |
Thank-you’s both sooooo much, I have cried alot today. I believe what you’s said is true, thank-you’s. I actually was sick to my stomach over it, but today is a new day, believe it or not I went to a different catholic church today, & it was wonderful. Words cannot describe how it made me feel. They sang “Be Not Afraid”, I loved it, everything touched my heart. Thank-you’s & God Bless you’s here. Jazzz
February 23, 2009 at 2:59 pm |
Jazzz,
God bless you. I am so sorry for your loss and I am praying for your pain. PLEASE do not let one person steer you away from your faith. I am protestant and in RCIA and I am already so blessed by the fullness of the Catholic Church! I would encourage you to pray about your journey. There is a grief ministry at the church we go to. Maybe that is available in your area. May God bless you as you heal and move forward! Ally :)
February 24, 2009 at 4:29 pm |
Thank-you happy. God bless you. Yes I need prayers, thank-you. Your sister in Christ, Jazzz.
February 25, 2009 at 10:24 pm |
I have been reading the book “Catholocism for Dummies”, I have found it very informative & helpful. It says that the Catholic Church does recognize other churches baptisms as valid & names the various churches it does consider valid baptisms. The church I was baptized in when I was young is listed. I have spoken to the priest about this & am now in the process of trying to locate my baptismal certificate, the church is closed now with no minister. Actually I am very pleased to hear that as I feel it did alot of damage to people. Also the priest told me that I can go up with everyone else for the eucharist & not take the eucharist but instead he will give me a special blessing. So I can feel welcome. Until I become full Catholic. What a blessing for me to have found such an understanding & welcoming priest. Jazzz.
February 26, 2009 at 1:13 am |
Would your parents have a copy of your baptismal certificate? Does that church have a central organization that would have records from closed churches?
February 26, 2009 at 3:58 am |
No there never was any certificates given or records of any baptisms done. There beliefs about it are completely different. I found the headquarters in the States on internet, they gave me some long distance phone #’s. I called & no there never was any papers about baptisms. T hey asked me why I wanted it & I told them that I need them because I want to become Catholic. I found out the minister is now 92 yrs. old now & living out west. I remember him always preaching that we were the only ones going to heaven, that church. I remember him always preaching against the Catholic Church alot. I don’t think anyone would help me even if they could.
February 26, 2009 at 5:23 am |
I am not a catholic yet but an Especialian for many years. I understnd why Prodestants cannot take communion but why is there no exceptions for an Episcopalian when they are somewhat close to the catholic faith. I have taken RCIA,and have attended mass for three years including masses for Lent, Easter, Christmas but still not able receive full comunion, but a blessing. Is there any way that there can be an exceptions to the rule? I have always believed the true meaning of Christ with communion, for my lifetime and say the important prayers daily. Not joining the catholic church is what i would like but a family problem faces me that I cannot join. Do you have any sugestions how I could handle this?
Peace, Faith, Hope, Love Always, Kathy Stewart
(from Iowa)
February 26, 2009 at 2:34 pm |
Hi Kathy, from my understanding, it’s not based on being valid because of that church’s belief’s, or even if the minister who baptized was a true christian. What matters is if the baptism was done properly. Mine was a full immersion in a lake in the name of the Father, the Son & the Holy Spirit. That is why mine would be considered valid.(to my understanding) It has to be have been done so that there is no room to doubt that water went on your skin, & it has to have been done in the names of all the trinity, the father, son & holy spirit. Some churches beliefs could also make it invalid as they don’t believe in the trinity or baptize with water. To me it doesn’t matter at this point, whatever I have to do to come into full communion within the catholic faith I am willing. God Bless you. Jazzz.
February 26, 2009 at 2:37 pm |
Kathy,
I am sorry you are unable to join the Catholic Church. God knows what is going on. Pray for this to change so you can be received into the Catholic Church.
But in the meantime you will please God much more by obedience to His Church by refraining from communion despite the hunger of your heart. Look at it as a Holy Fast and at every mass and every visit to the Blessed Sacrament, ask God to give you the graces of a Spiritual Communion.
The Grace any Catholic receives at communion is given by God and greater graces are given to those with a better disposition to receive them.
So, God is able to give you grace as He wills for this journey to holiness.
Prayer for Spiritual Communion ( or say your own)
Visit to the Blessed Sacrament
3 times:
Blessed and praised every moment is the Most Holy Sacrament of the Altar
Blessed and praised every moment is the Most Holy Sacrament of the Altar
Blessed and praised every moment is the Most Holy Sacrament of the Altar
Glory Be to the Father and to the Son …etc
Spiritual Communion
Lord Jesus, I firmly believe that you are present in the most Blessed Sacrament. I adore You as true God hidden here. I ask Your pardon for my sins; and because I love You above all things, I desire to receive You spiritually in this moment.
(Pause–Spiritual communion)
I thank You for having united myself to You and I submit myself entirely to Your Holy Will.
February 26, 2009 at 2:40 pm |
Kathy, not sure what kind of family problem you mean, but maybe if that’s the case it’s just ne meant to be right now?? I know for me I have repeatedly had tried to go Catholic & something would happen that would make me turn away, like repeatedly hitting a brick wall. It left me feeling hurt, confused, angry. At this time in my life I am determined, & I am not going to let anything or anyone stop me as I have wanted this for a very long time. Your sister in Christ Jazzz.
February 26, 2009 at 5:08 pm |
My baptism certificate couldn’t be located so my parents wrote a statement that I was baptized when, where who and that they were witness and signed it and that is what I used for my annulment and registering with the church.
Thanks Pam for the prayer. That is very nice!
Be blessed.
Ally
March 26, 2009 at 2:43 pm |
2 Questions….
We have recently started attending a different parish, which we LOVE and I attend RCIA.
We always in the past go down for a blessing at commuion,the whole family goes(my stepsons take communion, myself, my husband and daughters go for blessing)anyway, we went down to this one and they don’t bless. The just held up the host and said body of Christ.(and look a little put out that we came down!) It was very uncomfortable for all of us including my Cradle Catholic husband. He said he had never been to any mass that they don’t go down for a blessing. We have since then been remaining in our seats, which is akward for everyone around since then they have to step over us. Should I ask the priest about this? Is this common? I realize once I have converted and our marriage acknowledged by the church both my husband and I will be taking communion, but for my children it will continue to be an issue(Unless they join!).
Also, please help me to answer some family questions. When I was explaining the reasoning behind the Church not allowing Protestants to take communion the question was~”Why does the Church think they have the authority to decide if I am in the right position to be able to take communion?”
Thanks and blessings to all
Ally:)
March 26, 2009 at 7:28 pm |
Dear Ally,
I do not know the history of the blessing of non Communicants. It may be a very old practice that originated as a blessing for small children who accompanied their parent to the altar but had not had their first communion yet. I think at some point, priests began blessing anyone who could not receive communion. My guess is that this was just one among many liturgical innovations introduced by individual priests without the green light from Rome after Vatican II.
This is a very warm and welcoming practice but perhaps it creates scandal b/c not everyone can see that they are only receiving a blessing. Some might think non Catholics are receiving communion. Not sure, but in my experience the Church always has a sublime reason for everything. It is NEVER just an exercise of power.
I have read however, not too long ago that this was improper. I will try to find something on it. My own husband has stopped going forward too, even though our priests still do this.
I personally feel sad b/c it is a nice way to be welcoming to the non Catholics and keep them from sticking out like a sore thumb. But I need to obey the Church. I would say you are in a very-loyal-to-the-Church-Parish if they don’t do this blessing so I would still want to stay there if I were you.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
As for where does the Church get her authority to decide who can take communion;
Jesus gave the Apostles His authority to Rule:
Luke 9:1 When Jesus had called the Twelve together, he gave them power and authority to drive out ALL demons and to cure diseases, 2 and he sent them out to preach the kingdom of God and to heal the sick.
Luke 10:19I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome ALL the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you.
Mt. 16:17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”
Matthew 18:17-18 “If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. 18″Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.
Binding and loosing as used in the last two passages is a Hebrew idiom that means “The power to rule”. So Jesus gave His Church via the Apostles and later the Bishops to rule the Church with authority in Jesus’ absence. The keys of the Kingdom indicates the authority to act and make decisions in the name of the King. Just like a Prime Minister.
Luke 10:16 “The one who listens to you listens to Me, and the one who rejects you rejects Me; and he who rejects Me rejects the One who sent Me.”
1 Timothy 3:15 but in case I am delayed, I write so that you will know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth.
John 20:21 So Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you.”
Can’t get anymore clear than that.
March 26, 2009 at 9:46 pm |
Yes, you are correct this is a very loyal parish and I have noticed that. My husband appreciates it because it is like the one he grew up in.
The other ones have the big screen with the music, announcements and information on it. This one has misslets(spelling?). We can follow along with the readings. They also hold the plate under when you go for communion and ring the bell.(If any of this makes sense to you!). I do like it, it just surprised us! We have even been to weddings that they invite all to come for a blessing and instruct non catholics on what to do.
Thanks with the help to the answers.
Now the debate is(I am sure you have heard it all before)”it is not to be taken literally, He said I am the vine and you are the branches”…we are not really branches. “I am the shepard and you are the sheep”…. we are not literally sheep.” One in the same this is not really Jesus’ prescence.
I just want to be a good representative!
:)Ally
March 28, 2009 at 1:36 am |
Ally, when you say “they” do you mean the priest or an EHMC? EHMC’s don’t bless, but I have also heard that blessing isn’t proper; if they still use the paten (aka plate) and ring the bell, they likely never blessed those who weren’t taking communion.
As far as those who have to step over you, that happens. Not to worry.
The way my pastor explains it is that we’re going back in time to a re-presentation of the Crucifixion. That moment is eternal, thus through the power of the holy spirit, bread and wine are transformed into the Body and Blood of Christ. We may not literally be sheep, we may not literally be branches, but it’s definitely the Real Presence.
March 28, 2009 at 6:43 pm |
:) Nan, both,either.
Ha, we thought because it was a small church and few non~Catholics that they were perplexed when we came up arms crossed so we moved to the other side so we could get the priest next time… same thing! I like the blessing as it is nice to be able to go down as a family and some take and some are blessed, but if it is something they are not suppose to do that, I understand that.
April 7, 2009 at 12:10 am |
Hi. I came across this site while trying to find an answer to this very question. I was raised in a Protestant church, but was also taught to pray to saints, that the Eucharist is the body and blood of Christ. I follow the Nicene Creed as Catholics also do. I believe in the Trinity, in the Immaculate Conception, the death and ressurection of Jesus Christ…and so on and so forth. Yet I have to sit out of receiving Communion, not because of what I believe, but because of where I have worshiped our Lord and Savior. And why is confession to a priest any different than confession with a pastor?(which I have done by the way).
April 7, 2009 at 12:56 am |
Caitlyn,
It sounds like you are more Catholic than Protestant. Have you considered entrance to the Catholic Church?
Regarding confession: You can confess your sins to your pastor but he cannot administer the sacrament of absolution whereby you can receive grace to progress in overcoming sins. Catholic Priests have been ordained by bishops who have been ordained by bishops in an unbroken line back to Christ. You might want to see these posts.
Confession to a Priest
Church Fathers on Confession
Why do we need to confess to a priest?
Why can’t I just confess to God?
April 7, 2009 at 2:20 am |
As a matter of fact, all of what I believe was taught to me in a Protestant Church. And pastors are still ordained by bishops who have been ordained, etc…and we too can trace our lines back to Christ as Protestantism arose from Catholicism in the first place. Many people forget that we all came from the same beginning. Thus we are more similiar than we are different.
April 7, 2009 at 5:12 pm |
Caitlyn,
Were you raised Lutheran or Episcopalian/Anglican? They are the only two Protestant denominations I know of that have nearly Catholic beliefs. I am not sure that Lutherans have bishops though. Yes all Protestants came out of the Catholic Church. And, yes you are so right that we have many more similarities than differences.
I am going to guess you are Anglican/Episcopalian since you trace your bishops back to the apostles. If they had adhered to the rite of ordination all Anglicans and Episcopalian would have retained a valid priesthood and sacraments. But, this they did not do. Therefore, they are not admitted to Catholic Sacraments because they are not in Comm-UNION with us and they do not have the same beliefs in these sacraments as Catholic do.
You can read more HERE–> Catholic Encyclopedia
I also found this answer online Here at yahoo answers.
Yes, a person has to be Catholic (or Orthodox) to receive communion in Catholic churches (all rites), because Catholics & Orthodox have a particular understanding of the Holy Eucharist. Anybody who does not share that understanding should not partake.
I liken it to the guy who marries a vegetarian and brings her home for Thanksgiving dinner. Since she does not believe in eating meat, one would expect her to naturally refrain from eating the Thanksgiving turkey. It’s not an affront to her to have the turkey on the menu to serve all the other family members who DO believe in eating meat. She’s still welcome to join in the festivities, but why would she want to eat turkey if she believes it’s wrong to eat turkey?
So it is with the Holy Eucharist at a Catholic or Orthodox liturgy. We believe that the bread and wine are transubstantiated into the true Body and true Blood of Christ. Somebody who does not believe in transubstantiation simply should not partake — nor should they want to partake. Why would you want to do something you don’t believe in?
But it’s not a slight. The Holy Eucharist is there for the people who DO believe. The ones who do not are welcome to participate in the rest of the liturgy, but we assume they aren’t going to want to do something that they don’t believe in. And if a person does believe in transubstantiation, we invite them to become Catholic.
April 7, 2009 at 9:40 pm |
Some churches in the Lutheran World Federation have bishops, some do not. ELCA in the US, Sweden, Norway, Tanzania all have bishops, and Sweden and Tanzania believe themselves to have preserved (or acquired) the Historic Succession (the Catholic church, of course, does not concur). In many instances Anglicans and Lutherans now participate in each other’s episcopal ordinations.
April 7, 2009 at 9:45 pm |
I was raised in Presbyterian Church as well as a Congregational one(we moved when I was 10). I also attended a Lutheran school for about 3 years.
What bothers me is the fact that I DO believe in everything the Catholics do(including transubstantiation), but because I was not baptized/raised in a Catholic church, I cannot partake in Communion. Not because of myself, but because of those who brought me up. Why should I be denied when it is not I who am not in union with the Church? Why do I have to “convert”(I’m putting it in quotes since I already have the same beliefs).
I understand not allowing non-Christians, or those who do not believe in transubstantiation.
Also I know Catholics who do not believe in everything the Church teaches, and yet they can and do partake in Communion.
April 8, 2009 at 12:37 am |
Caitlyn, it isn’t as simplistic as you believe; your church isn’t in Communion with Rome and receiving communion in a Catholic church implies more than has been discussed here.
If you were validly baptized (in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit), your Baptism would be considered valid; however, you still wouldn’t be able to receive Communion, you would first have had religious education, confess to a priest and only then have your First Communion. To become a full member of the Church, you’d have yet more religious education and be Confirmed. Those who convert as adults will be brought into the Church on Saturday at Easter Vigil; those with valid Baptisms will be Confirmed, then will have their First Communions while those who were never Baptized or whose Baptisms were invalid will be Baptized, be Confirmed and have their First Communions.
I can’t comment on the people who don’t believe everything the Church teaches as people have different levels of understanding; there are people who have had bad formation to begin with so don’t realize they weren’t taught true to the church, and others who don’t believe they need to adhere to the teachings. That’s between them and God. Please God that they’re inspired to believe in Church teachings and to take advantage of Confession.
The Vatican is rumored to have rejected three candidates as Ambassador from the US on the grounds that as they were all pro-abortion.
You might want to consider poking about in the Catechism or talking to a priest in your town to get a better understanding of what the differences are, so you can understand what we think is different and why we think so.
April 8, 2009 at 1:35 am |
My baptism is valid. I don’t know what the comment about abortion has to do with Communion, but I am pro-life in case that matters.
My church? I was raised in several different churches.
Even though I was confirmed in a Congregational Church, I only attend once a month to receive Communion. The rest of the time I attend Catholic Mass with my fiancee.
My beliefs are the same as Catholics(and I know they are from conversations with my fiancee, as well as a nun). The only difference between myself and my Catholic fiancee is the idea of Confession. But because the church I was confirmed in is not in union with Rome, than I am barred from taking Communion. So it is more about(at least in this case) the church itself, than what I personally believe.
So what you’re telling me is that one MUST be confirmed in a Catholic or orthodox church in order to receive Communion?
April 8, 2009 at 2:19 am |
Abortion is one of the things that automatically excommunicates you; pro-abortion politicians, such as Kathleen Sebelius and Nancy Pelosi, shouldn’t present for communion as they fall under the category of procuring abortions presumably due to advocacy and their ability/voting histories on pro-abortion policies.
With Mass attendance, Catholics believe that failure to attend Mass on Sunday is a Mortal Sin; in that case, confession to a priest is required before going to Communion again (keep in mind that attending Mass doesn’t require receipt of Communion).
Actually, it would have to be a Catholic church; Orthodox aren’t in Communion with Rome, and while Catholics would be fine giving Communion to the Orthodox, the Orthodox priest would frown on it if his people received Communion in a Catholic church and would not want a Catholic coming to him for Communion.
FYI, Orthodox tradition is a bit different and babies get three sacraments, baptism, communion and chrismation (which is what they call confirmation) at the same time. Orthodox intinct, meaning they have bread and wine together, given by spoon to the faithful. Some Eastern Catholics do the same.
I’m afraid that you must be confirmed in a Catholic church to receive Communion. As you can see, there are differing traditions between your church and ours, so believing the same things doesn’t quite get you to the same place.
Do you have a wedding date set? Hasn’t your church suggested RCIA?
April 8, 2009 at 2:24 am |
Dear Caitlyn,
Since your beliefs are Catholic why not seek reception in the Catholic Church? And I admire your integrity of not receiving communion in the Catholic Church out of respect for her beliefs even though it seems legalistic to you. As I am sure you are away humility is a great virtue. And one of the surest paths to it is obedience to authority. You can’t just will to be humble you have to do painful obedience in spite of
your own opinions. When i went through RCIA on some days I knew more about the Catholic Church than the volunteer teacher but I decided out of humility I would just go with the program. It was my first lesson in obedience to the Church. It was difficult b/c my Protestantism had steeped me in pride.
One thing you can do when you attend the Catholic Mass is ask Our Lord for Spiritual Communion.
Spiritual Communion Prayer
April 8, 2009 at 10:33 am |
We are getting married in June in a Protestant Church for various reasons(most of my family is protestant, we wouldn’t be able to have a full Catholic Mass, my grandfather had left the church over 50 years ago, and doesn’t really feel comfortable,etc…) We are having a priest participate in the ceremony to bless the marriage. And no, he has never mentioned RCIA to me. That might be because my fiancee and I already agreed to raise our children in the Catholic church(but also sharing with them my own Protestant heritage). I have considered converting, and am still somewhat wrestling with the decision. This has been one thing that has been nagging at me, and why I’ve been asking questions, trying to understand why.
I apologize if I have seemed argumentative, but I’m just trying to get answers. Thank you for the information you have given me.
April 8, 2009 at 4:09 pm |
Hi Caitlyn!
I was in exactly your situation and I understand your questions and confusion! My husband is Catholic and we were married in a protestant church. Neither he nor I take communion right now and we attend Mass weekly if not more! I started out with the same feelings as you in many ways. I am going to join but I have to pray for patience because that will not happen until 2010! (This has been a particularly difficult time as many fortunate others are preparing for Easter!!!!) I feel like I am just about to flip in anticipation! ha…. Anyway, I had thoughts and feelings like yours about other people.(I know people who never go to confession and still go to communion…I know people who’s marriages are not annulled in the church and they are remarried and still taking communion…on and on.)
I think, though the most important thing is that YOU be obedient! Some of it I think that whether it makes sense to you or not there is just a little of just chocking it up to that’s the rules!
We(myself and my husband) pray the prayer that Pam (BFHU) gave to you and we pray that our Father will delight in our obedience!
I pray that for you also.
I will say that if your husband is Catholic and you share those beliefs also I would think it would be a huge blessing to hop on over!!!!!
Best Wishes on your journey
May God bless you and keep you!
Ally :)
April 8, 2009 at 9:58 pm |
Caitlyn,
Congratulations on your upcoming wedding!!!
No question is out of bounds. Ask away please. You do not seem argumentative at all. When I was trying to get answers to my questions I would go to RCIA all prepared with questions but when I sat down with a Catholic and thought about what I wanted to ask and my questions sounded so rude to actually ask this sweet volunteer Catholic. So I would try to word it so as not to sound rude but then I wouldn’t actually get my REAL question answered. So, I just want to give you permission to ask away and do NOT worry if it sounds rude. I have been there done that. You can read my conversion story HERE–> My Conversion
April 9, 2009 at 3:02 am |
Caitlyn,
Congratulations on the wedding.
I’m a bit surprised that you weren’t told about RCIA; most likely because you aren’t getting married in the Catholic church, I’m guessing you haven’t gone through their pre-marriage counseling. I know that people here have gone into RCIA after their first meeting, once the deacon discovered that one was not Catholic. I have an acquaintance who is Catholic but was not confirmed and when she and her fiance went into the pre-marital counseling, she was put into the class, had a few make-up sessions for important topics she missed and was Confirmed last week; converts are brought into the church during Easter Vigil but Catholics are supposed to be Confirmed at some other time. This may vary with the church, since I go to the Cathedral and the Rector does everything properly.
I don’t mean to imply that it’s a forced conversion, which is how it sounded when I re-read that section; rather it’s a way to learn more about the church in structured environment. You read excerpts from the Catechism, among other things, but learn a lot about Catholic tradition. People are free to convert or not. You might want to consider it if for no reason other than to learn more about the faith in which you have committed to raising your children.
My grandma started life as a Baptist; my grandparents were married first in her church, then, the next year, in his church, and she converted during the several year gap between her second and third child. It sounds wrong to say they were married twice, but they’re on record with both churches; I think the norms have changed and my grandpa was an Eastern Catholic so his church may not have recognized the Protestant wedding in the 30’s. People convert if and when they’re ready, not before so don’t think that it would be odd if you decide to go into the class. Each parish decides how they do things, and mine starts a class together so people learn as a group, which is how it was done in the beginning; a parish closer to my house says you can start any week of the year. You may find a different situation.
You can also buy a catechism to read or look at the text online as there’s a version out there. I would encourage you to at least do that as a way to learn more about similarities and differences; please do come back with your questions, which we’ll try to answer.
You sound frustrated more than anything and hopefully we’ll be able to help you sort things out for yourself so that you have a greater understanding of where the churches diverge.