VOCATIONS TUESDAY: Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate


 

Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate

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9 Responses to VOCATIONS TUESDAY: Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate

  1. diane says:

    Um…they are wearing Carolina Blue.

    Are they the offiical spiritual mascots for the Tarheels?

  2. As long as it is not Michigan colors, I have no problem with it.

  3. Lionel Andrades says:

    Monday, September 19, 2011
    ITALIAN APOLOGIST REJECTS DOGMA CANTATE DOMINO EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS, ASSUMES INVINCIBLE IGNORANCE IS EXPLICITLY KNOWN TO US
    The Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate magazine Il Settimanale di Padre Pio has published the second volume of apologetics by Corrado Gnerre, titled Apologetica Vol II. The book has an Introduction by Fr. Massimilliano M. Zangheretti FI and contains articles by Corrado Gnerre which he wrote for the magazine. The book is distributed by the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate and contains the article Fuori della Chiesa non c’e salvezza (Outside the Church No Salvation) pp. 230-237.Corrado Gnerre assumes those saved in invincible ignorance are explicitly known to us so it contradicts the teaching on outside the church there is no salvation.

    He quotes popes and Church Councils on this teaching which he calls the truth of the faith but does not distinguish between the ordinary and extra ordinary Magisterium on this truth of the faith.He never mentions Cantate Domino, Council of Florence which was an infallibel teaching.

    We do not know any explicit case of a non Catholic saved in invincible ignorance in the present times. So how could it be an exception to the dogma, as he alleges?. A simple philosophical observation is called for here, from this Professor of Philosophy.

    The Catholic Church admits that there are those saved in invincible ignorance or the baptism of desire but does not claim anywhere that this is an exception to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus. It was Cardinal Richard Cushing, the Archbishop of Boston and the Jesuits at Boston College who promoted this new doctrine. Naïve Catholics still repeat the same error- an explicit–implicit baptism of desire and invincible ignorance!?

    When Catholic liberals and dissenters support this error it is understandable but Corrado Gnerre is not one to them.To claim invincible ignorance is an exception to the infallible teaching is not only irrational philosophically but it would also be heresy.

    The apologist omits any reference to Fr. Leonard Feeney. Does he believes that Fr. Leonard Feeney was excommunicated for heresy as the secular media allege? Fr. Feeney said everyone needs to be a visible member of the Church for salvation and there were no exceptions i.e. invincible ignorance, baptism of desire etc. De facto there are no known exceptions. De facto or de jure (in principle) we cannot know any case of a person saved in invincible ignorance or the baptism of desire.

    If Fr. Leonard Feeney was excommunicated for heresy then even the popes whom Gnerre has quoted, are in heresy for saying like Fr. Feeney that everyone needs to be an explicit, visible member of the Church for salvation.

    Pope Pius XII in the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 does not state that Fr. Leonard Feeney was excommunicated for heresy but for disobedience. Fr. Richard Shmaruk the priest who represented the Church in the negotiations with Fr. Feeney before the lifting of the excommunication is still alive. In a Press Statement, he said Fr. Leonard Feeney was not required to recant his teaching on extra ecclesiam nulla salus (Salvation outside the Church? Francis Sullivan S.J, Paulist Press). Fr.Feeney was only asked to recite the Creed. He chose the Athanasius Creed which says outside the Church there is no salvation.(Peter Vere ,Canon Lawyer on the Status of those hold Fr.Leonard Feeney’s Doctrinal Position, online). Fr. Feeney died as a Son of the Church. His priestly faculties were suspended by the Archbishop of Boston even though Fr. Leonard Feeney was never in heresy.

    Gnerre is making the same error as the Archbishop of Boston who was corrected in the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 which referred to ‘the dogma’, the ‘infallible teaching’.

    For Corrado Gnerre which is the ‘infallible teaching’ that Venerable Pope Pius XII refers to in the Letter of the Holy Office?

    The Letter of the Holy Office 1949 was telling the Archbishop of Boston and the Jesuits that the dogma does not refer to invincible ignorance as an exception. The dogma indicates all non Catholics in Boston and elsewhere, need to convert into the Catholic Church to avoid Hell and go to Heaven.This was what Fr. Leonard Feeney taught.So the Letter supported Fr.Leonard Feeney on the dogma.

    Corrado Gnerre never quotes Lumen Gentium 14, Ad Gentes 7 which indicates Catholic Faith and the baptism of water is the ordinary mean of salvation. Instead he seems to consider Lumen Gentium 16 ‘only those who know about Jesus and the Church’ as the ordinary way of salvation. This would also contradict Cantate Domino.

    Those who ‘know’ should be seen in relation to those who do not ‘know’ (invincible ignorance).Either way ,only Jesus can judge. So why mention it?

    Vatican Council II (AG 7, LG 14) and the dogma Cantata Domino tell us that Catholic Faith and the baptism for water is the ordinary way of salvation for all people on earth.

    1. So is the infallible teaching for Catholics, everyone with no exception needs to enter the Church for salvation, or is it, only those who ‘know’ about Jesus and the Church?

    2. Was Fr.Leonard Feeney excommunicated for the same teaching as the popes, Church Fathers, saints and the dogma?

    3. Do we interpret Vatican Council II and the Catechism of the Catholic Church as break from ‘the infallible teaching’ or in accord with it?

    Except for this issue I personally recommend the writings of Corrado Gnerre. It is also a pleasure to listen to him on Radio Maria, Italy. However just like the late Fr.William Most, also a good apologist, Corrado Gnerre makes the same error. They both assume that implicit salvation (baptism of desire etc) is explicitly known to us and so they both assume it compromises the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

    After initially saying extra ecclesiam nulla salus is a truth of the faith (Verita di fede) the final paragraph of the article states Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus can be saved. This needs to be qualified. Saved in general in their religion? This is confusion since Corrado Gnerre I know believes all religions are not equal paths to salvation. If Corrado Gnerre is implying that non Catholics can be saved as an exception and these non Catholics are defacto, personally known to us, then this would contradict the dogma outside the church there is no salvation.

    To claim invincible ignorance is an exception to the infallible teaching would be heresy. It would also contradict Vatican Council II.

    If that last paragraph does not refer to non Catholics in general, being saved or non Catholics being saved as an exception and these cases being de facto known to us, then there is only one possibility left. They can be saved in principle(de jure) as an exception ‘in certain circumstances’ (Letter of the Holy Office) and be known only to God. They are unknown to us.

    Where there is confusion about non Catholics being saved as in the last paragraph Gnerre could clarify that de facto everyone with no exception needs to be a visible member of the Church(LG 14;AG 7) for salvation while de jure, in principle,as a possibility known to God only non Catholic can be saved. We do not know of any particular case in the present times.

    The de facto -de jure observation is ‘built in ‘ the Magisterial texts. If it is not seen there could be confusion. (See the difference! http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/08/see-difference.html#links)
    -Lionel Andrades

  4. Lionel Andrades says:

    THE CATHOLIC CHURCH DOES SAY THAT A CATEGORY OF PEOPLE ARE ORIENTED TO HELL

    The Franciscan Friar of the Immaculate Bro.Peter Julian whom I met at the bus top last Tuesday (Sept.6, 2011) said that the Church does not say anyone is condemned to Hell.

    The Church tells us that a category of people are oriented to Hell I mentioned. Vatican Council II (AG 7, LG 14) tells us that those who know about Jesus and the Church and yet do not enter are oriented to Hell. This would mean millions of people in modern cities.

    Redemptoris Missio 55 tells us that non Catholic religions are not the ordinary means of salvation and this must be remembered in inter religious dialogue. This is saying millions of non Catholics are on the path to Hell or already are there since they have not converted.

    Vatican Council II (AG 7, LG 14) indicates that the ordinary means of salvation is the Catholic Faith and the baptism of water. All people need to convert into the Church. This means the majority of people in the present times are lost if they do not convert while billions have died without Catholic Faith and the baptism of water and are in Hell. If there was anyone saved for some reason it would be known to God only. In general however they are lost.

    The Catechism of the Catholic Church 1257 says that the Church knows of no means to eternal beatitude other than the baptism of water. So billions of non Catholics are lost to Hell for all eternity.

    Dominus Iesus 20 says salvation is available for all people but to receive it all need to enter the Church. So the Church is necessary for salvation. One cannot choose to save oneself with invincible ignorance since it is a special grace given by God. One cannot administer it like the baptism of water. A person can enter the Church visibly through the baptism of water and with Catholic Faith. So Dominus Iesus is saying many today are on the path to Hell.

    The dogma Cantate Domino, Council of Florence specifies the non Catholics who are on the way to Hell, a Hell which has fire.

    In the Bible Jesus tells us that the path to Hell is wide and most people take it.

    ‘Those who do not believe will be condemned ‘ says Jesus (Mk.16:16) The Bible indicates billions of people are lost.

    So the Catholic Church does tell us the conditions for going to Hell in the faith and moral teachings of the Bible, Tradition and Magisterium.

    Non Catholics and non Christians are in general on the path to Hell. (Vatican Council II, Cantate Domino, Catechism of the Catholic Church etc)
    -Lionel Andrades

    NATIVE AMERICANS BEFORE THE MISSIONARIES WENT THERE WERE ORIENTED TO HELL SINCE VATICAN COUNCIL II INDICATES CATHOLIC FAITH AND THE BAPTISM OF WATER IS THE ORDINARY WAY OF SALVATION
    http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/09/native-americans-before-missionaries.html

  5. Lionel Andrades says:

    SEMINARIAN OF THE FRANCISCAN FRIARS OF THE IMMACULATE EXPRESSES FORMATION

    I was talking to a seminarian yesterday (July 17) evening, he was selling religious books at the Church Santa Maria di Nazareth, Boccea, Rome. There were so many inconsistent views he held and I could imagine the real confusion in his mind when the subject was really clear.

    1. He believed the Church was the ordinary means of salvation but if he met a non-Catholic he would not ask him to enter the Church. Since the Hindu or Buddhist cold be in invincible ignorance or have the baptism of desire.

    He says the Church is the ordinary way but considers the baptism of desire etc as exceptions, to the general norm i.e. the baptism of water. Yet he also considers the general norm those potentially saved with the baptism of desire and other forms of implicit salvation.

    2. He believed that all needed to enter the Church explicitly but some who were saved implicitly did not have to explicitly, formally enter the Church with Catholic Faith and the baptism of water. So how could he reconcile this with the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus? He could not. The dogma says everyone needs to be an explicit member of the Church.

    The Church Councils, popes and saints taught differently on extra ecclesiam nulla salus he said. The Church today understands it differently. So the Church does not change its teaching on abortion etc but on this dogma it is possible and acceptable.

    4. Fr. Leonard Feeney was excommunicated for heresy he said and if I did not believe him he added I could ask his priest-formators. The Letter of the Holy Office condemned Fr. Leonard Feeney for heresy he said.

    This too was inconsistent. He was only repeating what his superiors told him.

    Fr. Leonard Feeney had the same message as Cantate Domino, Council of Florence 1441 so was the dogma in heresy? Was he excommunicated for affirming the dogma? St. Francis of Assisi, St. Maximillian Kolbe and numerous saints taught the same extra ecclesiam nulla salus as Fr. Leonard Feeney.

    WITH A DEFACTO KNOWABLE BAPTISM OF DESIRE MASS IS OFFERED

    1. He could not see that the baptism of desire and invincible ignorance were accepted in principle and not rejected. However when they were considered de facto and known in particular cases was when the trouble starts. If they are just accepted as a possibility, known to God then we can maintain this belief and also the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

    Otherwise it is saying that the baptism of desire is defacto and explicitly known to us and the dogma says everyone needs to be a de facto and explicit member of the Catholic Church so this is a contradiction. It is contrary to rationality and the Principle of Non Contradiction.

    However when we see that the Baptism of desire can only be dejure and accepted in principle and so does not contradict the dogma. It also does not violate the Principle on Non Contradiction. This was the understanding of the Baptism of desire over centuries that it did not conflict with the dogma. This is not a new theory or theology I expressing here.

    The seminarian considered the baptism of desire, as very real and known in particular cases, so it contradicted the dogma as it was known in the past. For him it contradicted Fr. Leonard Feeney.

    2. Those who know about Jesus and the Church and yet do not enter but those in invincible ignorance can be saved. True in principle. Finally it will be Jesus only who will be the Judge in particular cases. In Boston, USA I cannot say that, “This person is saved in invincible ignorance and so he does not have to convert into the Church”. De facto, in reality on earth, there are no known exceptions.

    De facto, since I do not know of any exception, everyone needs to be an explicit member of the Church in Boston, since the dogma says so. In Boston and the rest of the world.

    3. The Letter of the Holy Office 1949 published in the Denzinger does not state in the text that Fr. Leonard Feeney was excommunicated for heresy. Even Karl Keating and Fr. Francis Sullivan S.J (Boston College) admit this.

    The Letter also refers to ‘the dogma’, the ‘infallible teaching’. The dogma Cantate Domino is in accord with Fr. Leonard Feeney. So on the dogma, the Letter of the Holy Office supported Fr. Leonard Feeney.

    4. In the Boston Heresy Case (a phrase created by the secular media) were the Archbishop and Jesuits in Boston in heresy? They gave us a new doctrine, the known in the present times case of a non Catholic saved with the baptism of desire or in invincible ignorance.

    The Archbishop stopped Fr.Leonard Feeney from offering Mass and hearing Confession and the Jesuits expelled him from the community and Boston College. Why? For holding the centuries-old traditional teaching on extra ecclesiam nulla salus? The Archbishop nor Jesuits issued a clarification when the media reported that the Catholic Church has changed its teaching on outside the church there is no salvation. This heresy is an American gift to the Church.

    This is a lie which in ignorance probably, is being passed on to young seminarians by their prudent priest formators.
    -Lionel Andrades

  6. Lionel Andrades says:

    Sunday, October 16, 2011
    CATHOLIC LAY PROFESSOR AT UNIVERSITA EUROPA DI ROMA AFFIRMS DOGMA EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS

    Weekly Il Settimanale di Padre Pio says a non Catholic can be saved in invincible ignorance but we do not know of any such case, it is known only to God. There is exclusive salvation in only the Catholic Church says Corrado Gnerre. This is an infallible teaching according to Venerable Pope Pius XII.

    http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/10/catholic-lay-professor-at-universita.html#links
    The October 2, 2011 issue of the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate magazine Il Settimanale di Padre Pio has published the fourth and final part of the apologetical series by Corrado Gnerre, Dio e Cattolicismo!-Verita del Cattolicesimo e falsita delle altre religioni’.

    Corrado Gnerre a professor at the Universita Europa di Roma, Rome clearly affirms the dogma extra ecclesiam nula salus and the necessity of all people, with no exception, to convert into the Catholic Church for salvation.(1) Outside the Church, he writes, there is no possibility of salvation.(2) He means de facto everyone on earth needs to enter the Church (Cantate Domino, Council of Florence), with Catholic Faith and the baptism of water (Lumen Gentium 14, Ad Gentes 7, Vatican Council II).Corrado Gnerre accepts conceptually, in principle (de jure), as a possibility known only to God, the salvation of a non Catholic who has not been a Catholic through no fault of his own.(3)

    Corrado Gnerre writes that Pope Pius XII in the Letter of the Holy Office (Nov.1949) says ‘Now, among those things which the Church has always preached and will never cease to preach is contained also that infallible statement by which we are taught that there is no salvation outside the Church.’ We have an affirmation says Corrado Gnerre of the infallibility of the teaching extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

    A person can be saved in invincible ignorance, the baptism of desire or following the natural law he accepts. We do not know of any person saved in invincible ignorance he says and this is only known to God. (‘e questo lo può sapere solo il Signore’). He implies that since we do not know any case of a person saved in invincible ignorance, it is not an exception to the dogma. Since those saved with the baptism of desire or following the natural law are not explicitly known to us they are not an exception to the dogma. They do not contradict the infallible teaching that everyone needs to be a formal, visible member of the Catholic Church to go to Heaven. These cases are accepted only in principle, dejure, conceptually.They are not de facto known.We do not know personally any such case.

    Since they are not defacto this Professor of Philosophy knows that they do not violate the Principle of Non Contradiction. The dogma refers to de facto cases in reality on earth and we do not know anyone on earth saved with the baptism of desire, in invincible ignorance or following the natural law. Neither do we know anyone presently saved who did not know the Gospel through no fault of this own.

    Corrado Gnerre is married and has five children.He has written many books, contributes articles for magazines and can be heard on Radio Maria, Italy.His recent book Apologetica Vol 2. has been published by Il Settimanale di Padre Pio.
    -Lionel Andrades
    ___________________________________________

    1.
    Bisogna ribadire la Dottrina tradizionale della Chiesa in merito all’ esclusivismo salvificio cattolico : al di fuori della Chiesa non vi è possibilità di salvezza.
    2.

    Bisogna ribadire la Dottrina tradizionale della Chiesa in merito all’ esclusivismo salvificio cattolico : al di fuori della Chiesa non vi è possibilità di salvezza.
    3.
    Ricordando ovviamente anche la possible salvezza per chi non ha colpa a non essere cattolico.

  7. Lionel Andrades says:

    Sunday, February 19, 2012
    VATICAN CURIA MUST REALIZE THAT ALL THE POPES HELD THE RIGORIST INTERPRETATION OF EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS

    Invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire are not exceptions to the dogma.

    There can be no explicit, defacto, known cases of persons saved in invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire. So it is not an issue with respect to the dogma, unless, it is made an issue and made to appear as explicit and known.

    Here are the popes affirming the literal interpretation of extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

    POPE PIUS IX (Allocution December 9th, 1854)

    Pope Pius IX held the rigorist interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and also affirmed the possibility of non Catholics being saved in invincible ignorance, cases of which are unknown to us and so are not explicit exceptions to the dogma.

    Pope Pius IX was saying: (Defacto):’We must hold as of the faith, that out of the Apostolic Roman Church there is no salvation; that she is the only ark of safety, and whosoever is not in her perishes in the deluge…’ and (Dejure): ‘we must also, on the other hand, recognize with certainty that those who are invincible in ignorance of the true religion are not guilty for this in the eyes of the Lord…’

    Defacto (explicitly) everyone needs to enter the Church for salvation (to avoid Hell) and de jure (in principle) and known only to God, there could be non Catholics saved in invincible ignorance etc, ‘in certain circumstances’ (Letter of the Holy Office 1949).

    QUANTO CONFICIAMUR

    (Defacto) 8. ‘… no one can be saved outside the Catholic Church – Quanto Conficamur, Pope Pius IX 1863

    (Dejure) 7. ‘… those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments…-Quanto Conficamur

    LETTER OF THE HOLY OFFICE 1949

    The Letter of the Holy Office 1949 issued during the pontificate of Pope Pius XII mentions ‘the dogma’, the ‘infallible statement’.

    Here is the ‘dogma’:

    (Defacto) ‘… it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.)

    ‘… none of those existing outside the Catholic Church… can have a share in life eternal… unless before death they are joined with Her… No one… can be saved, unless he (Defacto) remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.) http://catholicism.org/category/outside-the-church-there-is-no-salvation

    (Dejure) ‘… when a person is involved in invincible ignorance God accepts also an implicit desire…’

    These things are clearly taught in that dogmatic letter which was issued by the Sovereign Pontiff, Pope Pius XII, on June 29, 1943, (AAS, Vol. 35, an. 1943, p. 193 ff.). For in this letter the Sovereign Pontiff clearly distinguishes between those who are actually incorporated into the Church as members,(Defacto) and those who are united to the Church only by desire (Dejure).- Letter of the Holy Office 1949 (Emphasis added).
    VATICAN COUNCIL II

    (Defacto) ‘The Church…is necessary for salvation… faith and baptism…for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church.’- Lumen Gentium 14, Vatican Council II.

    (Dejure) ‘…those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God…’ -Lumen Gentium 16

    ‘Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church…’- Lumen Gentium 16

    If one uses the irrational defacto-defacto analysis of the above magisterial texts instead of the traditional dejure-defacto interpretation it would mean the popes contradicted themselves and that Vatican Council II contradicted an ex cathedra dogma. It would be a criticism of the infallibility of the popes ex cathedra. It would also be contrary to the Principle of Non Contradiction. It is heresy to claim that there are defacto exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

    With the defacto-dejure analysis we see that the Magisterial texts affirm the centuries-old interpretation of the Church Fathers, the saints, the popes and Councils, including Vatican Council II. This was the traditional interpretation of Fr. Leonard Feeney of Boston. This is the teaching of Pope John Paul II’s Dominus Iesus (20) and the Catechism of the Catholic Church 845,846 and also during the pontificate of Pope Benedict XVI in Responses to Some questions regarding certain Aspects of the Doctrine on the Church (2007).-Lionel Andrades
    _____________________________________________

  8. George Brenner says:

    If cases of invincible ignorance, Baptism of Desire and Baptism of Blood which are all unknown to us by Church teaching, why would anyone even want to speculate on the very word which is denied to us so as not to misrepresent, mislead and confuse the faithful. The word unknown or the phrase known only to God falls under the care of God himself and we can not or will not limit God. No human should go beyond the known formula of No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church as pronounced repeatedly.Would it not be much easier for the sake of explanation to say that all who enter Heaven after Jesus founded The One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church will be Catholics who have died in the state of Grace and free from Mortal sin and thus went to Heaven or Purgatory before reaching Heaven. We have made a mess out of this basic belief of our faith, while all this time the truth DOES remain intact through the Vicars of Christ and guidance and protection of the Holy Spirit.

  9. Hi there, everything is going well here and ofcourse every one is sharing data, that’s truly excellent, keep up writing.

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