Marty Haugen Strikes Again

5 bob to: The Cafeteria is Closed which informs:

Commander Craig (H/T Gladius spiritus) brings us the following Marty Haugen quote.
For twenty plus years I have been told, mainly anonymously through the internet, how I have been personally responsible for destroying Roman Catholic worship. I have never responded; however, I wish to offer a few comments now.

First of all, although I am not Roman Catholic, I have a deep love and respect for and faith in the worship tradition of the Roman Catholic Church. My own hesitancy about joining the Church is not about its eucharistic theology, but rather around the unwillingness of the Church to commission, ordain and welcome all humans as Jesus did–male and female, married and unmarried, saints and sinners. I believe that the Church, God’s people and all of creation have suffered from this omission.

I do not think of my own music as central or important to Roman Catholic worship, present or future. I began writing as a parish musician; I still keep the vision that to be “catholic” is to learn and love and embrace the best of the past tradition and to welcome the “best” of what is new, as Gods [sic] speaks through all cultures and expressions (see “Lumen Gentia” [sic]). I leave it to communities and to the Holy Spirit that will (more than us, thank God) guide the future choices that will last.

I had nothing to do with the choice of “Mass of Creation” for a Papal Mass. Having said that, I believe that attacks upon Tom Stehle in his efforts to engage a congregation with what he hoped would be familiar and meaningful to them (using parts of the liturgy with currently approved texts) were unfair, un-Christian and beneath those of us who truly care about how God speaks through our Sacraments.

Gladius Spiritus has analyzed the infamous “Gather Us In” ditty.

*******************************

It occurs to me, after all these years, why are we still giving this non-Catholic aging hipster so many Catholic dollars? The songs are insipid, and comments like these… well…

Well, (with apologies to Sr. Delores Dufner)  it is time to Sing a NewMusic Genre Into Being!

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182 Responses to Marty Haugen Strikes Again

  1. You know, until I read this I head no idea Marty Haugen isn’t Catholic! This makes it even more ridiculous that his songs have dominated so many hymnals for so long!!

  2. Joel says:

    I found out he was not a Catholic when my choir started to change the words in the Mass of Creation, which I find quite approprite to do. Of course, if he is not a Catholic, he does not care that Catholics have verbage that we are not allowed to deviate from. What I do not understand is why (as the choir I currently sing in) some directors opt not to change the words he has written to the word expressly required by the Vatican.

  3. Personally I think it is well advised to consider looking into updating the hymn books. With the triple whammy of these songs sounding dated, feeling tired, and frequently being problematic, what more do we need to reconsider even using them at all anymore?

    Catholics have been doing “Gather Us In” long enough, and more than a few of us are tired of it. I grew up singing it at least once (usually twice) a week in gradeschool.

    Here in this church the choir is droning;
    “Gather Us In” is our entrance song.
    Chanted this slow, it sounds more like groaning;
    I notice no one is singing along.

    “Gather Us In” is sung every Sunday;
    “Gather Us In” is sung every Mass.
    Give us a break and sing something different,
    “Gather Us In” gets old really fast.

    source

  4. Fr. J. says:

    SS, your just miffed because you have to admit you are haughty. Seriously, does that word even belong in a hymn?

    Joel, what words did your choir change?

    Actually, I find there is nothing so wrong with a Haagen Daaz song, that it cant be fixed with changing out:

    the words
    the instrumentation
    the Key
    the rhythm
    the melody
    and the theological biases.

    Once you do that, their songs can be almost appropriate for liturgy.

  5. Joel says:

    That’s funny Fr J!
    We changed
    “Heaven and earth are filled with your glory” to
    “Heaven and earth are full of your glory”
    and the “Prince of Peace, Bread of Life” to
    “Lamb of God”

    Liturgical music has been a pet peeve of mine for a few years now. At the very least it needs to be theologically correct. I would not be opposed to having classic brass in the choir loft every Sunday rather than just on Easter and Christmas (but I know that can get expensive). Guitars on Sunday morning drives me up the wall! Kudoes to Pope Benedict for demanding a higher standard of excellence in that department.

  6. Nan says:

    Fr. J. do you have a bias against good ice cream?

  7. Fr. J. says:

    Nan, good point, I love ice cream. I just dont like my church music to be all smooth sweet creamy and non-nutritious.

  8. John Quinn says:

    Marty’s music is in my opinion neither ‘smooth sweet creamy’ nor ‘non-nutrutions’.
    His gathering song ‘All are welcome’ for example, has a magnificent, memorable melody, and challenging words.
    Most of his music is scripture based, and as Christ is present in the Word, this can never be non-nutritious.
    Has anyone tried Marty’s communion antiphon ‘Within the reign of God?’
    Let us all follow Marty’s lead and recognise that ‘Christ is truly present here’, let us ‘take his holy food, receive the body and the blood’, let us indeed recieve the ‘mighty flood’ of grace!
    All are welcome in this place!

  9. Joel says:

    John,
    I do not object to all of Marty’s music. I think the Gloria and the Great Amen of the Mass of Creation are both good stuff. Much of the music of the Mass of Creation is worth to be sung during Mass, but I do object to music directors who use his stuff in oposition to liturgical norms (and fluffy-make-you-feel-good-Christianity, that has no place in the Catholic Church).

  10. John Quinn says:

    Joel,
    I have never used Marty’s music in opposition to liturgical norms. For example, Marty’s Lenten acclamation ‘Praise to you, Lord Jesus Christ’, is very close to the words suggested in the Lectionary. (The liturgical norm for this is that we do not have to stick exactly to the Lectionary version).
    Also, Marty’s setting of PS 50 (or is this 51?) follows word for word a translation approved by the Bishops’ Conferences both sides of the Pond. Surley this psalm (Have mercy on me God, in your kindness…), is a very powerful and rather uncomfortable acknowledgement of guilt – hardly ‘fluffy-make-you-feel-good.
    As far as I am aware, the liturgical norm is that all that we sing in the Catholic Church should be taken from scripture and the lirurgical texts. Nearly all of Marty’s texts fit the bill!. (‘Gather us in’, maybe is less scriptural, although would anyone disagree with anything in this text?. This song again is hardly ‘fluffy…’ with statements like ‘lost and forsaken’, and ‘rich and haughty’.)
    Let us all, in Marty’s words: ‘[live] Lives that are holy’.

  11. John Quinn says:

    asimplesinner
    A dictionary definition of “Yech” is that this word is ‘Used to express contempt or disgust’ (The UK version is “Yuck”).
    You may or may not care for Marty’s music, but how can any Catholic disagree that at communion time ‘Christ is truly present here’, and that we recieve Christ’s body and blood?

  12. It is a false dichotomy – that I disagree with what the Eucharist is because I don’t like his work.

    It is another false dichotomy to say that so long as it is Biblical it is aesthetically pleasing.

    His work is saccharine and it sounds dated. It has a feel of a sing-along and has a decidely more profane tone – to hear it, nothing of it screams of being a genre set apart. To hear Byzantine chant, Gregorian Chant, or even the changs of the Orient for non-Christian religions, one is aware of the solemnity present – techno mixes aside, these are not ways people sing for sing-alongs or dances… Likewise for traditions of robust choral singing for much of western hymnody. I would rather be singing Ein’ feste Burg ist unser Gott than Gather Us In any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

    So no, I do not care for it. And as a result of not caring for it, I in no way deny “Christ is truly present here”.

  13. John Quinn says:

    Fr J
    I am not sure how it would serve the liturgy by ‘fixing’ the songs of Haugen and Haas by changing the words. The words they use are nearly all taken from scripture. For example, Marty Haugen’s ‘Bread of life from heaven’ is taken from John 6. It has a popular tune that people like, a good accompaniment, it is in a singable key, and is rhythmically good.
    Do you really disagree sith the bible?

  14. Dr. Eric says:

    No, we disagree with neo-hippie folk music being foisted upon us in a setting that is diametrically opposed to such treacle. The words might be biblical but they are about “ME/US” not HIM. Get it now? Gather us in, We are all one body, We are the light of the world, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, gimme, gimme, gimme, gimme, gimme,!

    I have been playing guitar for 20 years now. I was the lead singer/lead guitarist in a band that “toured” for about 5 years. I played almost all types of music and I lived the rock ‘n roll lifestyle. That kind of music does not belong in church.

  15. John Quinn says:

    Eric
    Mary Haugen’s music is simply not neo-hippie folk. His ‘Kyrie’ (from a 2001 collection) is Mozartian.
    His setting of ps23 ‘Shepherd me, O God’ is thouroughly based on plainsong, most notably on ‘Orbis factor’.
    Jesus prayed to the Father that we may all be one.
    There are numerous references to ‘me’ in the psalms, but these were written by the psalmist (King David and others), not by Marty Haugen.
    ‘Gather us in’ acknowledges the real presence of Christ in the gathered assembly, as did Jesus when he stated ‘where two or more are gathered…’.
    I agree that some kinds of music are not appropriate for Church. For example, I cannot see Led Zep’s ‘whole lotta love’ being useful, although of course we all need love!

  16. John Quinn says:

    Eric
    Sorry, This should be MarTy Haugen!

  17. diane says:

    I like some of Haugen’s tunes. It’s his lyrics that I can’t stand. “Give us the courage to enter the song.” What on earth does that even mean?

  18. John Quinn says:

    Diane
    Haugen’s lyrics are nearly all taken from scripture. If you ‘can’t stand the Word of God, why are you a Catholic?.
    St. Augustine describes Our Lord as ‘The new song’.

  19. JQ – what a load of pedantic and loaded sophistry calculated to cow Diane! (Good luck with that, I have seen her in all her com-box glory and tht broad is like a pit bull made of iron.)

    I am sorry, but that comment just irritated me to no end on the simple baseis that you know full well Diane’s objections to the absoulte and utter drivel of campfire music that Haagen has churned out and has been taught to Catholic school children for decades now in leiu of their musical patrimony has NOTHING to do with her opposition to the Word of God. You know it, I know it, anyone who knows her knows it. To frame a response to her objection to this insipid and milquitoast drek is intellectually dishonest and comes across as snyde and – dare I say it! – haughty.

    By what seems to be your litmus test, anything that makes implicit or explicit reference to Scripture is to get a pss and always be presumed appropriate, sound, and tasteful. If I show up in Speedos that say “I love Jesus” on the posterior how pedantic would it be for me to counter the objections of those who raise eyebrows with “What, don’t you love Jesus? I am just wearing clothes that proclaim my love for Him. If you don’t love Him too why are you even here?”

    So YES the words “I am the Bread of Life” are explicity in the Gospel – the words of Christ Himself, the second Person of the All Holy Trinity. I love to read them, I love to hear them, I do not like to sing them in the firsrt person voice in a fashion where we sing them as though they were our words. “He is the bread of life” SURE! Not as true to the text? Inasmuch as the pronoun is changed to understand the voice of the speaker and who the Bread of Life is, I suppose.

    The whole loaded “If you don’t love this, why are you Catholic?” is a ridiculous way to try to shut someone up who disagrees with your tastes. I love my dogs, I don’t love their poop. Would you think to ask me why I have dogs?

  20. Robert says:

    John Quinn,

    I think most of us would admit that it would be painting with a rather broad brush to claim that all of Marty Haugen’s music is bad. Joel, for instance, noted this. I would agree with him. I do like his song, which you mentioned, “Shepherd me O Lord.”

    The problem is more with specific — either shallow music or silly lines. Personally, the music of his which I do have a problem with, it is because it is not only uninspiring, but it detracts from the solemnity of the Mass and does not lift me to prayer. I understand that in many things, “ymmv (your mileage may vary)” but perhaps I speak for more people than just myself. When the music is treacly it does not invite me to participate in the Mass, and I think that this is one (of many) reason why I see so few of my contemporaries in church. I think my best friend would agree. I would like to see more young men at church, but quite frankly a lot of this music does not help. I could launch into a whole host of generalizations here, but I won’t.

    On the other hand, if you do appreciate the music which Marty Haugen writes, I can understand why you could become exasperated at the internet discussions of him, which often can get quite snarky. I assure you that I am not so much anti-Haugen as pro- a different vision of church music. In my opinion, the emphasis on hymns to the detriment of the Mass actually being sung is perhaps a deeper issue which needs to be resolved. There’s a lot that can be said on this issue, but as ASimpleSinner noted, it won’t be because we dislike the Scripture which he quotes.

  21. Fr. J. says:

    If we are talking tastes here, I would prefer our congregations learn to chant some. It is not hard. In fact, it is much easier to chant than to sing many of the modern stand bys. But, chant isnt everything. Great hymns are especially good for processionals and recessionals. The lovely old arias such as Schubert’s Ave and Franck’s Panis Angelicus are well suited to offertory and communion. I would also love to have just instrumental music during the offertory or communion. Give me an aria for one and instrumenal for the other and some sacred silence after communion. I really dont think we need to be singing all the time. In fact, all the text from the singing adds too much to the already ample “text” of the readings, homily and prayers. As a community we need to learn how to pray silently together, which is an unspoken liturgical value.

    But, none of these ideas are popular in the current climate. Why? Because the professional church music industry wants to make money and get as much copyrighted material in our mouths as can possibly be jammed into a Sunday parish mass. Brings new meaning to mass consumption, doesn’t it?

  22. I just turned Catholic 3yrs ago.I love Gather Us In because I think that is what Gods love is about.The willingness to accept all people and love all,we are Gods children.Yes the Catholic church has been bent recently but WE ARE STRONG and will survive WE ARE NOT BROKEN.May Gods peace be will all of you

  23. John Quinn says:

    Danny,
    I thoroughly agree.
    At an RCIA Mass attended last year, Marty Haugen’s ‘Go in peace’ was sung. This is one one the most beautiful songs I have ever heard anywhere. Let us follow Marty’s lead and:’Go in peace, the peace of Christ, and learn the ways of God..’.

  24. Keith says:

    Hey if Catholics can sing Luther’s song of the Reformation ” A Mighty Fortress is Our
    God” for mass they shouldn’t have trouble with a few good Marty Haugen tunes.

  25. Hey if Catholics can sing Luther’s song of the Reformation ” A Mighty Fortress is Our God” for mass they shouldn’t have trouble with a few good Marty Haugen tunes.

    Keith you seem to labor under the illusion that Catholics would reject anything Luther wrote because it was written by Luther. This just isn’t the case.

    Ein’ Feste Burg is well written, decently composed, and not insipid emotive nonsense. Most of Haugen’s works, simply aren’t.

  26. TX Gal says:

    Keith,
    I agree with you. I’ve actually worked with priests that do not allow Ein’ Feste Burg in any form. Marty Haugen may have personal philosophy that we cannot agree with, but that should not cloud our appreciation for his music. As a composer, I appreciate his simplicity in most cases, and his knack for a memorable melody.

    And anyone who has been subjected to the same song weeks upon end shouldn’t take it out on the composer, but on their own liturgist or music director.

  27. John Quinn says:

    TX Gal,
    I agree with your appreciation of Marty’s music. I have yet to come accross any of his compositions that are not well written. One of my favo(u)rites is ‘Within the reign of God’ – a very powerful Coplandesque antiphon with numerous scripture references.

    I cannot agree (with asimplesinner) that texts such as:
    ‘Healer of our ev’ry ill,
    light of each tomorrow,
    give us peace beyond our fear,
    and hope beyond our sorrow’
    – are insipid and emotive. Surely this text captures the poignancy of hope in illness very succinctly and beautifully. Also, what a well-crafted melody and lovely chord sequence.

  28. John Quinn writes:

    I cannot agree (with asimplesinner) that texts such as:
    ‘Healer of our ev’ry ill,
    light of each tomorrow,
    give us peace beyond our fear,
    and hope beyond our sorrow’
    – are insipid and emotive.

    All fine and well and good that you don’t agree or cannot agree with ASimpleSinner (puts you in the same boat with my own mother as often as not!) when it comes to the assertion that this the lyrics you cite are not insipid and emotive… I would settle for agreement that they were pedantically vaguely diestic… In a way that at a campfire is nice, at the Mass is not…

    Father J and I had the opportunity to attend a Mass open to the public at a seminary not long ago… The music was in the style and performed with a celtic folk band with fiddles… All well and good. Actually, rather better composed than most HaugenDaas stuff… But the lyrics were so vaguely deistic – appropriate for any Muslim, Jew or Unitarian, that one is left to wonder why , in a culture where your average Catholic is spending an hour if that at Mass, more traditional lyrics and composing styles can’t be offered.

    Bring all this stuff to your next Catholic campfire singalong… At the Mass? I will take a pass.

  29. John Quinn says:

    The words ‘Healer of our ev’ry ill’ are thouroughly traditional (being taken from psalm 25 ‘It is God who heals every one of your ills’). I have used this text as the communion antiphon where this psalm fragment is given in the Sacramentary.

    The rest of the text is in my view much too deep to be used at a campfire singalong.
    It acknowledges God’s presence, Grace, peace, love and guidance.

    The referece to the Holy Spirit would, I think, make this inappropriate for Unitarians, for example.

    Surely the well-crafted, traditional (and popular) music of Haugen and Haas, is preferable to celtic music with vague lyrics (no matter how good the music is)?

    If you are looking for good celtic style music with specifically liturgical texts, have you tried Liam Lawton?

  30. Ruben Road says:

    asimplesinner is so narrow-minded, so self-righteous, high and mighty, all-knowing, I wonder if asimplesinner can even carry a tune. Those who can’t compose criticize.

  31. RE: Ruben’s delightful comments.

    Dare I say it? Oh… what the heck, I dare.

    How haughty of you!

    Very classy.

  32. John Quinn says:

    Diane likes Haugen’s tunes. So do I. The musical patrimony of the Church is the Psalms.

    St Augustine suggested that when we recieve the Body of Christ, we should say ‘I am’.

  33. John Quinn says:

    asimplesinner versus Marty Haugen

    Treacly = contrived/sentimental
    Milquetoast = weak/ineffectual
    Drek = dirt/trash
    Drivel = nonsense

    Haugen’s music is in my view none of the above. Like any composer, his output is variable. However, it is (again, in my view) all worth hearing.

    Much of it is extremely powerful, and there are certainly some masterpieces in there.

    He has enriched the RC Church in its musical patrimony – Sacred Scripture (the Psalms in particular).

    His music is not in the ’round the campfire’ style.

    His excellent canticle: ‘All you works of God’ has received official approval from the Irish commision for liturgy’.

    His music is a very powerful vehicle for the Word of God.

  34. Anonymous says:

    Marty Haugen v asimplesinner

    Treacly
    Milquetoast
    Drek
    Drivel

    Asimplesinner’s entries into this debate, are, in my opinion, all of the above

  35. Ruben Road says:

    Asimplesinner is not AUTHORITY!!! Why waste time validating the jerk’s opinion. He does not even have any composition. Or does he? (I doubt! Mention a song to his name. NONE.)

  36. And a year on the comments roll in… Any blog owner can tell you the hits are satisfying, even when the personal attacks are not. So be it.

    As to “St Augustine suggested that when we recieve the Body of Christ, we should say ‘I am’.”

    Please cite that.

    Just curious, John… Is that you Marty?

    • bfhu says:

      One of our priests actually told people to say, “I am” upon reception rather than “Amen”.
      I wrote to the bishop and his response went to me and the priest. Saying “I am” was NOT to be done at all.

  37. So Ruben chooses the path of name calling on me as a person, eh?

    Sing on, Haugen-fan, sing on!

  38. Dr. Eric says:

    And how does Mr. Haugen’s work enrich the Church against the likes of St. Gregory the Great, Byrd, Palestrina, de Machaut, des Prez, and the great composers of the 17th-19th centuries?

    Besides, Sacrosantum Concilium states that Gregorian Chant is to be given the pride of place in the Latin Rite. “The Church acknowledges Gregorian chant as specially suited to the Roman liturgy: therefore, other things being equal, it should be given pride of place in liturgical services.” [116]

  39. John Quinn says:

    The Augustine reference is ‘Sermon 272’.

    See the entry in ‘Sing to the Lord’ – USCCB for the place of Gregorian Chant. (All things being equal…)

    At my cathedral we sing Marty Haugen, Victioria, Byrd (the sublime ‘Ave Verum’), plainsong etc.and more local compositions.

  40. John Quinn says:

    I think that the blog of Salford Cathedral Choir might, in a practical way answer Eric’s question:

    See: http://salfordcathedralmusicblogspot.com

  41. Dr. Eric says:

    Isn’t it kind of funny that Pope Benedict doesn’t use Haugen’s stuff? If it is so spiritually uplifting, why doesn’t he use it at his Masses? In fact, I checked the music lists that were used when the Holy Father came to America last year. Haugen was not on the list; Palestrini was, Mozart was, so were Beethoven, Schubert, and Brahms. Yet, no Haugen music was used during the Pope’s visit at all.
    ________________________________________________________
    That Cathedral also uses the Taize stuff, I’m not impressed.

  42. John Quinn says:

    The fact that Haugen’s music was not used at the above Masses, does not change the fact that many find it spiritually uplifting, and have used it as prayer.

    Were Arvo Part or Vittoria sung at these Masses?

    Why be unimpressed by the use of Taize?

  43. John Quinn says:

    Eric

    ‘We are all One Body in Christ’ – 1Cor 12:12

    ‘All are on in Christ’ – Gal 3:28

    ‘Not as individuals are we called to be saved, but as One Body’ – Constitution in the Church 1:9

    I have found personally, that by using the psalm settings of Haugen and other contemporary composers, they have become my prayer, and given me a greatly enhanced understanding of the choral psalm settings of Palestrina, Schutz and Busxtehude for example.

    On a practical level, I would suggest that the Reponsorial Psalm of the Sunday in question is sung to a contemporary setting, and then a choral version of the same psalm be sung at the Preparation of the gifts.

    To me, this would be mutually enriching to the contemporary and choral tradition.

  44. John Quinn says:

    Sorry, should be ‘All are ONE in Christ’

  45. John Quinn says:

    I have attended two of Marty Haugen’s workshops. He is, in my view, not a hipster.

    He is certainly ageing (aren’t we all). But whatever happend to respect for your elders?

    We pay him because ‘..the labo(u)rer is worthy of his hire’.

  46. Dr. Eric says:

    Yes, I can still hear the “Church Ladies’ League” croak out in their signature sharp off key singing, “Weeee are many paaarts…. weeee are alllll one booodyyyy.”

    Notice the phrase, WE, WE, WE, WE, WE, WE ad infinitum! Compare it to the words of Tantum Ergo or Pange Lingua Gloriosi. There is no comparison, those are hymns to God, they are not songs about us.

    The Mass is not about US it is about God. That’s why these hippie songs are dragging down the spirituality of Catholics! Only 1/3 of all Catholics believe in the Doctrine of Transubstantiation! If we were to get back to more traditional theology and hymns we could reclaim our Catholic people and keep them from slipping into heresy.

  47. John Quinn says:

    The Pange lingua (including Tantum ergo) is a beatiful benediction hymn. (And thus not really suitable for Mass).

    The text is composed by St Thomas Aquinas.

    There is indeed no comparison, however, with the Word of God. An excellent example of this is Fr John Foley’s ‘One bread, one body’ (This is mainly scriptural).

    This refers to the presence of Christ in the people.
    ‘Where two are more are gathered, I am there’

    In the introduction to the Missal (UK version), it is said that when the priest says ‘The Lord be with you’ he is stating a fact.

    We are reminded in the GIRM of the four presences of Christ – The People of God – The Word of God – The Preist – The Blessed Sacrament.

    I do not believe that it is heresy to sing of the presence of Christ in the people.

    If Catholics are slipping into heresy, surely the words ‘Christ is truly present here’ and ‘Come, receive the body and the Blood’ (both found in Haugen hymns) are not responsible.

    Again, why be disrespectful to older people (and sexist),who sing both ‘One bread, one body’ and Pange lingua / Tantum ergo.
    St Teresa (Avila) reminds us that ‘Christ has no body on earth now but yours’

  48. Ruben Road says:

    John – “St Teresa (Avila) reminds us that ‘Christ has no body on earth now but yours'”

    Very well cited John. I’ve spoken with a priest and he has pretty much the same opinion as yours, he says:
    “Liturgists who know their theology very well also acknowledge that we join our self-offering to the offering of Christ in the Mass. In fact, the offering of the bread and wine is symbolic of the human participation in the offering of Christ. The Priest says: “Blessed are you, Lord, God of all creation; through your goodness we have this bread to offer, which earth has given and HUMAN HANDS have made….” The bread and wine are symbolic of our work, our produce, our harvest which is consecrated to God and become the Body and Blood of Christ.”

    Dr Eric’s suggestion that ‘the Mass is not about US it is about God’ is the kind of thinking that would drive people away from the Catholic Church. In worship, you do not ignore the fact that WE the people are there. The Second Vatican Council came to being to fight this kind of mentality.

  49. Anonymous says:

    Thanks Ruben

    The Mass is, of course about God, not forgetting that:

    ‘When we bless the cup of blessing aren’t we sharing in the blood of Christ? When we break the bread aren’t we sharing in the body of Christ?’ -Corinthians

    I’m not quite sure why Eric objects to the Presence of Christ in The People of God.

    The above quote is the Word of God. Is this a ‘hippie song’ ?

  50. John Quinn says:

    The music of Marty Haugen is, in my view, not ‘neo-hippie’. Some is, as I have said, Mozartian, some is Coplandesque, some is ‘Lutheran’, some is influenced by plainsong, and some is indeed in the ‘folk-style’ (very like Gordon Lightfoot, in my opinion)

    His lyrics are nearly all scripture, or derived from scripture.

    Why does Eric object?

  51. Brother Chung says:

    Please forgive the untrained any technical errors:

    Setting aside musical styling, or theological correctness, the issue I have with the use of Mr. Haugen’s work is that it is dominant; I miss the days of my youth, when as the months would pass during the year, not only would the content of the songs change to reflect the passing of the church calendar, but the music would span the breadth of the palette available and not focus on the work of one composer.

    God is present in many forms, physical and spiritual among us and inspires many people to commit works that praise Him, including musical composition. Shall we not allow the voice of God to be heard as He has inspired, from many people, and in many forms? God is with everyone (choose Him or not), not just Mr. Haugen.

  52. John Quinn says:

    Absolutely, Brother Chung.
    As Marty says: ‘All the music of God for all of the people of God’.

    It can be a danger that there is the overuse of one composer, or one style of music. (However, this is not the fault of the composer concerned!).

    In my parish, we use contemporary liturgical music, reformed hymnody, Taize, Iona (Rev. John Bell), plainsong, some Praise & Worship, folk, polyphony, and our own compositions.

    It is not the fault of Marty Haugen that some musical directors ignore the church calender and the breadth of styles available.

    Having been to two of his workshops, I am sure that it is not his intention that we should only use his music.

    Again, most of his texts are scriptural, and thus cannot really be theologically incorrect.

  53. John Quinn says:

    Eric

    The music of Taize (by composers Jaques Berthier and others) has been phenomonally successful and has spread over the Christian world over the last twenty years.

    It has re-introduced Latin, and popularised many Eastern (Orthodox chants).

    I am very impressed indeed that Salford Cathedral is using this music.

  54. John Quinn says:

    David,
    The hymns of David (Psalms), and the Prophets quite rightly dominate our RC hymn books.

    I do not find it ridiculous that these non-catholic writers are used.

    It, in my opinion, is true that there is an over-representation of Haugen (and Haas).

    However, this is not the fault of the above composers. It has more to do with the long-term faliure of the Church to pay musicians.

  55. John Quinn says:

    asimplesinner

    I have never said that just because something is Biblical, that it is aesthetically pleasing.

    Taste is a personal matter.

    Personally, for example, I have never liked the music of Fr John Foley’s ‘One bread, one body’.

    However, this song is extremely popular, congregations sing it, and it is in my view, a very powerful sung prayer.

  56. Anonymous says:

    “Dr Eric’s suggestion that ‘the Mass is not about US it is about God’ is the kind of thinking that would drive people away from the Catholic Church. In worship, you do not ignore the fact that WE the people are there. The Second Vatican Council came to being to fight this kind of mentality.”

    This mentality is responsible for the fact that only 1/3 of all Catholics believe in the Doctrine of Transubstantiation. I wonder if Mr. Quinn is one of the 1/3 who do. Vatican II is not some “super council.” We have to take all 2000 years of our existence in account and use all the Church’s experience and cut ourselves off at the neck and use only the last dreadful 40 years as our benchmark.

  57. Dr. Eric says:

    “Again, why be disrespectful to older people (and sexist),who sing both ‘One bread, one body’ and Pange lingua / Tantum ergo.”

    I’ll have you know that the ladies in our choir were relatives of mine and/or friends of mine. That doesn’t take away from the fact that they did sing sharp. One of them was a patient of mine, so your sexist/ageist comment is an ad hominum.

  58. Dr. Eric says:

    Most importantly, the actual practice in the Latin Church is to sing the propers of the day. These are not being done, this is where the abuse lies. This would also quash this hymn problem as the propers are part of the Mass and vary according to the Roman Calendar.

  59. Dr. Eric says:

    Sorry, I was answering Ruben in my Anonymous comment.

  60. Ruben Road says:

    That was a good one Dr. Eric. Where do you get this 1/3 fraction from? Some horoscope I suppose? You don’t even have the statistics of Catholics all over the world. Why such hasty conclusion?

    And what kind of doctorate do you hold to say that Vatican II is not some “super council”? You’ve just insulted everybody’s intelligence. After 2000 years here you are, lo and behold, the key to all enlightenment (*whisper* bright as Lucifer). Your thought is divisive!!! Therefore diabolical.

    Finally, could we ask you dear doctor Eric, to expound on your subject ‘the last dreadful 40 years’. Please enumerate the things you found dreadful in church history. If possible, account each year chronologically.

  61. Dr. Eric says:

    Ruben,

    I’m sorry, it is actually only 30% of American Catholics who believe in the Doctrine of Transubstantiation.

    “Currently, there is a lamentable lack of faith in the Real Presence. A 1993 Gallup poll revealed that 70% of Catholics hold false views about Christ’s presence in the Eucharist. Only 30% of those Catholics surveyed correctly believe that Jesus Christ is truly present—body, blood, soul, and divinity—under the appearance of bread and wine. A more recent survey found that belief in the Real Presence sharply decreases among younger Catholics. Only 17% of 18-29 year-olds accept that Jesus Christ is truly present in Holy Communion. It is shocking that five out of six Catholic teenagers reject the Real Presence, the heart of our faith.”

    “And what kind of doctorate do you hold to say that Vatican II is not some “super council”? You’ve just insulted everybody’s intelligence. After 2000 years here you are, lo and behold, the key to all enlightenment (*whisper* bright as Lucifer). Your thought is divisive!!! Therefore diabolical.”

    I’m not sure exactly what you are trying to convey here. :-?

    “Finally, could we ask you dear doctor Eric, to expound on your subject ‘the last dreadful 40 years’. Please enumerate the things you found dreadful in church history. If possible, account each year chronologically.”

    First we can already see that 70% of Catholics don’t even believe what the Church teaches about the source and summit of the Catholic Faith.

    Second, are seminaries and religious orders bursting at the seams like they were in the fifties or are they closing down and merging? Is Quigley Prep open or has it been closed?

    Here is a table showing the ratio of priests to laypeople:

    Year/Number of Priests/Laity/Ratio

    1900/11,987/12,000,000/1:1,001
    1920/21,019/16,000,000/1:967
    1940/35,389/20,000,000/1:614
    1960/54,682/42,000,000/1:768
    1980/58,398/50,000,000/1:856
    1990/53,088/59,000,000/1:1,111
    2003/43,304/64,000,000/1:1,478

    Notice that in less than 90 years the ratio was reversed and the number of priests peaked in 1980 in this table and has been in free fall ever since.

    How many priests and religious left their vocations in the 60s and 70s? How many Catholics contracept since 1968?

    From almighty Wikipedia:

    “Many Catholics have voiced significant disagreement with the Church’s stance on contraception.[22] The Canadian Conference of Catholic Bishops issued probably the most heavily dissenting document, the Winnipeg Statement. In it, the bishops argued that many Catholics found it very difficult, if not sometimes impossible, to obey Humanae Vitae.[23] Additionally, they reasserted—too strongly, conservatives say[24]—the Catholic principle of primacy of conscience.[23] Theologians such as Charles Curran have also criticized the stance of Vitae on artificial birth control.[25]

    Catholics for a Free Choice claimed in 1998 that 96% of Catholic women had used contraceptives at some point in their lives and that 72% of Catholics believed that one could be a good Catholic without obeying the Church’s teaching on birth control.[26] According to a nationwide poll of 2,242 U.S. adults surveyed online in September 2005 by Harris Interactive, 90% of Catholics supported the use of birth control/contraceptives.[27]

    Use of natural family planning methods among Catholics is low. In 2002, 24% of the U.S. population identified as Catholic.[28] But of sexually active Americans avoiding pregnancy, only 1.5% were using NFP.[29]”

    If you think that the last 40 years of Catholicism have not been dreadful, you need to reread your history.

  62. Dr. Eric says:

    http://www.jknirp.com/amhis.htm

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_contraception

    The post wouldn’t go through with them in. Here they are.

    My doctorate could be in underwater basket weaving and it wouldn’t change the fact that it is obvious that there is a serious problem in the Church these days. Unless you think that a Doctorate in Theology or Canon Law makes me credible (Argument from Authority Fallacy.)

  63. Dr. Eric says:

    WordPress deleted all of my links, it would appear. :-?

  64. John Quinn says:

    Mr Anonymous asks if I believe in transubstantiation.

    I believe that ‘Christ is truly present here’ and
    ‘[this is] your (Christ’s) blood and body given’ – Both phrases taken from Haugen songs.

    What do you believe Mr Anonymous?

  65. John Quinn says:

    Eric, Are we getting a little off-topic here?

    We are discussing Marty Haugen.

    Has singing ‘Christ is truly present here’ (Haugen’s words) really resulted in young people not believing that Christ is truly present here? (transubstatiation)

    Have any of Haugen’s lyrics contradicted RC teaching on birth control?

    Haugen has not asked us not to sing the propers. He has, however, offered a very near equivalent in his biblical texts.

    There has certainly been abuse in the RC church (if only this had just been liturgical), but is this Haugen’s fault?

    Have Haugens lyrics (scripture) and (fine) melodies, led priests to abandon their vocations?

    It seems odd that you question my beliefs on this forum. Would it be more logical to question the person who can’t stand the above lyrics?

    • Ruben Road says:

      I’m sorry for causing the thread to go off-topic here. I just wanted to show that Haugen’s composition could not be blamed for something as grave as, in the words of Dr Eric, the dragging down of the spirituality of Catholics.

      The Pope may prefer German, Italian or Austrian composers reasonably because he is German, born and raised there. Now to apply such preferences to us who might be exposed to music other than the works in the Western tradition is just totally wrong.

      Now the dreadful 40 years you mentioned, an argument which was not sustained if I may add, is a problem of the Church (both clergy and lay). It has nothing to do with music selection.

  66. John Quinn says:

    Eric, it seems to me that your comments are ad hominen.

  67. John Quinn says:

    Eric

    Haugen is not to blame for people singing sharp.

    ‘We are one body’ is scripture

  68. Robert says:

    “Haugen has not asked us not to sing the propers. He has, however, offered a very near equivalent in his biblical texts.”

    This is a bit of a stretch John.

    -Rob

  69. Dr. Eric says:

    Mr. Quinn,

    The comments that you are now commenting upon are directed to Ruben Road. I am just responding to his comments.

    If the propers were actually done, there would be no need for hymns.

  70. John Quinn says:

    Dr Eric & Robert

    Have you looked thru’ RitualSong (GIA)?

    There are a very wide range of dialogical texts (not hymns) which tie in quite closely with the propers with their antiphonal form and New Testament / Psalm structure.

    You are right – there is no need for hymns at Mass.

    At my parish, we often sing the nearest equivalent to the antiphon in the Roman Missal.

    To me, many of the items in the above book are worth singing, and get the message of scripture accross.

    If and when the Bishops Conferences publish a more precise list of texts, I will be happy to try and turn these into music!

    Where a hymn might be best used, in my opinion, is after the end of Communion. (See GIRM & Music in divine worship’.

  71. John Quinn says:

    asimplesinner

    ‘Gather us in’ is a classic hymn both in terms of words and music.

    Haugen did not ask for it to be sung every week, or for it to be sung slowly.

    Haugen’s music (and words) are not insipid, nor are they dated or problematic.

  72. John Quinn says:

    Joel

    The Word of God is always theologically correct

  73. Dr. Eric says:

    Yes, but it is also a Two Edged Sword.

  74. although i didn’t have thyme to read all of it , i reely enjoyed what i’ve read of this blog . i had thought that i was the only person who had had quite enough of mr. haugen’s ‘music.’ the allusions to various logical informal fallacies was particularly refreshing . there must be a way to work in the argument of the beard .
    i am a fiddle player of fair to middlin’ , thank you , abilities , having competed on the national level and i do actually read music . the music under discussion is & has been appropriate for middle school retreats for a good many decades , but most of us finished middleschool decades ago & one would hope that our spirituality / relationship with G-D has progressed a bit since then .
    as to the music being profane , some of the greatest hymns ( and symphonic works ) have used folk tunes and pub drinking tunes ( i’m thinking of the hymns of the wesleys , john & charles , since i am a refugee from modern methodism ) as settings . iona has some good church music set to old scottish & irish tunes ( wild mountain thyme , star of the county down …. wish we had one for the black velvet band , or , for pentecost , the one about sending ‘down a dove with beak as sharp as razors , to cut the thtoats of them there bloaks what sells bad beer to sailors ‘). unfortunately , we don’t use much of the ‘good stuff ‘ , just the overused crap of haugen , perhaps to line the pockets of GIA . and no , i don’t compose : i am old & closer to decomposing .
    the overuse of haugen’s music is one of the main reasons i bailed on our parish’s allegedly contemporary music group . sadly , the traditional choir , which is lead by some of the very best musicians in the area , has no place for a fiddle . the contemporary group has a couple of competant musicians ( including another former methodist , the pianist ) but the ‘leaders ‘ , well , it would be most nearly charitable to say nothing in that regard .
    what a hoot that he is not even catholic.
    the world is so full of such wonderfull music , tunes & hymns , secular & liturgical , why are we subjected to so much the same stuff as where the cow schlip grows ? could it be marketing ?
    and what’s wrong with the old lutheran (pub drinking tunes , again ) hymns ? the old lutherans were more nearly catholic than we are now . the tunes are easy to sing & were used to spread the ideas .
    during christmas one year , after the tree had soaked long enough , my wife put my fiddle tune books in the bucket , so yes , i can carry a tune in a bucket .

  75. John Quinn says:

    It is not Haugen’s fault if his music is overused.

    As for spirituality:-

    ‘God who makes the blind to see’
    ‘Call us to be your love’
    ‘Come, O Spirit! renew our hearts!’
    ‘Let our hearts burn with the fire of your love’
    ‘…open hearts that are stone’
    ‘Music to heal the broken soul’
    ‘May God fill er’ry day we share’
    ‘You have set me a banquet of love in the face of hatred
    ‘Go in peace…and learn the ways of God’
    ‘Christ is truly present here’

    Publishers have to be paid.

  76. Dr. Eric says:

    In Mr. Haugen’s own words:

    For twenty plus years I have been told, mainly anonymously through the internet, how I have been personally responsible for destroying Roman Catholic worship. I have never responded; however, I wish to offer a few comments now.

    First of all, although I am not Roman Catholic, I have a deep love and respect for and faith in the worship tradition of the Roman Catholic Church. My own hesitancy about joining the Church is not about its eucharistic [sic] theology, but rather around the unwillingness of the Church to commission, ordain and welcome all humans as Jesus did–male and female, married and unmarried, saints and sinners. I believe that the Church, God’s people and all of creation have suffered from this omission.

    I do not think of my own music as central or important to Roman Catholic worship, present or future. I began writing as a parish musician; I still keep the vision that to be “catholic” is to learn and love and embrace the best of the past tradition and to welcome the “best” of what is new, as Gods speaks through all cultures and expressions (see “Lumen Gentia”).[sic] I leave it to communities and to the Holy Spirit that will (more than us, thank God) guide the future choices that will last.

    I had nothing to do with the choice of “Mass of Creation” for a Papal Mass. Having said that, I believe that attacks upon Tom Stehle in his efforts to engage a congregation with what he hoped would be familiar and meaningful to them (using parts of the liturgy with currently approved texts) were unfair, un-Christian and beneath those of us who truly care about how God speaks through our Sacraments.

    Marty Haugen

    http://insidecatholic.com/Joomla/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3286&Itemid=80

  77. Dr. Eric says:

    Weare many parts. we are all one body, and the gifts we have we are given to share. May the Spirit of love make us one indeed; one, the love that we share, one, our hope in despair, one, the cross that we bear.

    I/Me/Mine, I/Me/Mine, I/Me/Mine.

    That is not how 1 Corinthians 12:11-20 reads.

  78. Dr. Eric says:

    I think that only publishing the propers for the Mass will make most of these heterodox publishers go out of business.

  79. John Quinn says:

    Dr Eric

    Are we getting off-topic here again. Is it Haugen’s fault that heterodox publishers are in business?

    Are the texts I have selected heterodox?

  80. John Quinn says:

    Dr Eric,
    I am puzzled by the I/Me/Mine reference.
    V2 has emphasised the corporate and communitarian nature of our worship. – It is in my view good that we have moved away from hymns of a former era, some of which were indeed of the I/Me/Mine nature.

    The ‘me’ in ‘Shepherd me, O God’ is the Davidic ‘me’.
    Christ said ‘I am the bread of life’.

  81. Dr. Eric says:

    I/Me/Mine is a reference to the trinity of the Me Generation and is also a song on “Let It Be.” I will also not that some of Haugen’s tunes use the same 6/8 time.

  82. Dr. Eric says:

    Yes, CHRIST is the Bread of Life, not you.

  83. in my geographical area , the catholic (roman rite ) church is perhaps the most ethnically diverse , welcoming all , including ‘mixed marriages’ that would be at least frowned upon in some other churches . yes , Jesus welcomed all . He did , however , say to one ‘ go and sin no more ‘.
    and not all were chosen , sent or ordained . did He not choose the twelve , and one of them a devil ?
    this in response to dr. eric’s highlighted portion of mr. haugen’s quote .

  84. John Quinn says:

    What is wrong with 6/8?

    Haugen’s ‘Gather us in’ asks us to live ‘lives that are holy, lives that are true’.

    St Augustine advises us to ‘recieve what we are’ – the body of Christ.

  85. John Quinn says:

    ‘I, me, mine’ was written by George Harrison of the Beatles, and was not intended, as far as I know, for liturgical use.

    It was not written by Marty Haugen.

    Augustine said: ‘The body of Christ. Who is this?. You are, if you will it – we all are if you will it’.
    (83:5)
    Many hymns are in 6/8 time.

    Haugen has stressed the need for diversity in the liturgy: ‘All the music of God for all the people of God’. It is not his fault if some music directors over represent his music.

    Haugen uses mainly the Word of God in his lyrics. This is not c**p. Nor is his music.

  86. John Quinn says:

    Fr J

    Arias are not really suitable for Communion time.

    Have you tried David Haas’ ‘I am the living bread’?

    ‘See this bread; take and eat and live in me’ …
    ‘I am the living bread come down from heaven. All you who eat my flesh and drink my blood will live forever.’

    asimplesinner

    If you are looking for a ‘non first-person’ antiphon, have you tried Haugen’s ‘Now in this banquet?’

    ‘Christ is our bread’
    ‘God of our journeys’
    ‘Strong is your name Lord, Gentle and Kind’

    … or Farrell’s Bread for the world.

    ‘Lord Jesus Christ, you are the bread of life’
    ‘Lord Jesus Christ, you call us to your feast’

  87. Dr. Eric says:

    Mr. Quinn,

    You obviously missed the point of the “I Me Mine” reference.

    There is nothing wrong with 6/8 time.

    You have a nice penchant for taking St. Augustine out of context. There are a few politicians who would be proud of you.

  88. Dr. Eric says:

    I am done with this topic. The computer crashed while writing a lengthy reply. It is not worth disturbing my peace any more. 200 years from now people will not be singing Haugen’s music. Yet, the Tantum Ergo will still be sung.

  89. Ruben Road says:

    200 years from now Haugen’s and many other composers music, Catholic and non-Catholics alike, will continue to be accepted in the church. No more pompous critics who would attribute music selection to the dragging down of Catholic Spirituality. No more discrimination. No more hypocrisies. True artistic freedom shall reign in our liturgical music. Amen.

  90. the opposite could as well be true :
    200 years from now , if HE still hasn’t returned , all this trendy music may happily be forgotten along with countless others .
    congratulations to dr. eric on crashing the computer :
    my life improved immensely when i took the ballpeen hammer to my home computer after it continued to lie to me .
    ludite

  91. lewiscrusade says:

    While some of Haugen’s stuff is quite good, there is one point that needs to be fundamentally kept in mind about liturgical music:
    It is for the purpose of prayer.

    Music-that-is-prayer is most purely expressed in chant, where the emphasis is on words, not melody.
    Some of Haugen’s defenders have suggested that his words are “challenging.” Perhaps.

    Every movement to subvert orthodoxy since the Arian heresy has done so through changes to liturgical music. The Arians won converts through appealing music and lyrics that taught people the Arian beliefs.

    The Protestants did the same thing in the 16th Century.

    Look at how many Catholics today sing “Amazing Grace,” without consideration that it’s a hymn about 1) sola fide (“Amazing grace . . . that saved”), 2) eternal security (“I once was lost . . . now I’m free”; “grace has brought me safe thus far” “Grace will lead me home”) and 3) total depravity (“a wretch”)

    If music is prayer, we must think of what we’re praying, and whom we’re addressing, and whether the combination of music and lyrics really put us in a state of prayerful contemplation and conversation with God.

  92. John Quinn says:

    Lewis

    Haugen’s music is all intended as prayer. You are right – the empahsis is on words (the music serves the liturgy).

    In my view, Haugen’s music serves the Word (of God) very well.

    Chant is a perfectly valid way to sing the Word.

    The ‘challenging’ feature of ‘All are welcome’, for me, is that (rightly or wrongly), the RC Church does not (at the moment) accept married or women priests.

    There is no mention of depravity in ‘Amazing Grace’.
    When I sing this hymn, I recall the line in psalm (39)40:18 ‘As for me, wretched and poor’.

    For further information on music-that-is-prayer, why not read Haugen’s ‘To serve as Jesus did?

  93. John Quinn says:

    Dr Eric,

    Are we getting off-topic here yet again?

    Haugen’s music is contemporary, and not particularly intended to be used in 200 years time.

    However, in my view, items such as ‘Shepherd me, O God’; ‘Healer of our ev’ry ill’ and ‘Gather us in’ are classics, and I think they stand a good chance of being around in 200 years time.

  94. John Quinn says:

    Lewis

    I do not think that Marty Haugen is subverting orthodoxy by setting the Word of God to appealing music.

    ‘Amazing Grace’ is taken from Ephesians 2:4-8 (with some psalm fragments).

  95. John Quinn says:

    It is difficult to take ‘Dr’ Eric’s views on transubstiation seriously.

    The ‘Dr’ claims to believe in the above – yet he does not believe that ‘Christ is truly present here’.

    What is this guy’s doctorate in? – Ignorance?

  96. John Quinn says:

    Sorry , should be transubstantiation.

  97. John Quinn says:

    A simplesinner = asimplemindedsinner

  98. Joel says:

    John,
    That’s real classy, as soon as you realize you can not get these two men to agree with your TASTE in music you resort to ad hominem attacks.

    • John Quinn says:

      It occurs to me, after all these years, why are we still giving this non-Catholic aging hipster so many Catholic dollars? The songs are insipid, and comments like these… well…

      Point taken Joel – mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

      However, I feel that I have to point out that this thread actually began with (the above) name-calling.

      John

  99. John Quinn says:

    Joel

    I have never asked anyone to agree with my tastes in music, nor resorted to ad hominen attacks.

    • I have never asked anyone to agree with my tastes in music, nor resorted to ad hominen attacks.

      Just name calling?

      A simplesinner = asimplemindedsinner

      It is difficult to take ‘Dr’ Eric’s views on transubstiation seriously.

      The ‘Dr’ claims to believe in the above – yet he does not believe that ‘Christ is truly present here’.

      What is this guy’s doctorate in? – Ignorance?

  100. John Quinn says:

    Joel

    I do not agree that the Word of God is theologically incorrect.

    Fr J

    Yes – the word ‘haughty’ does have a place. May I refer you to psalm 130 (131)

  101. Keith Toepfer says:

    I personally find that the music of Haugen which I have heard is, by and large, not transcendent. Stated another way, it does not assist me in overcoming my ego (in Myers-Briggs typology I am an INTJ) and open my heart to the Word.

    That fact alone is, for me, the end point of any discussion about the use of significant quantities of Haugen’s music at the Mass. Fortunately, my parish is Dominican and the Director of Liturgy and Music has a more traditional and reverential emphasis for the Masses I attend (10:30 or 12:00) at which the Traditional Choir sings. Music at the 09:00 Mass is sung by a Contemporary Choir, accompanied by piano rather than organ. Even so, I don’t believe much Haugen gets into the 09:00 Mass.

    Pax et bonum.

  102. John Quinn says:

    I can think of few pieces more transcendent than Haugen’s ‘Go in peace…’

    Keith, we all have differnt tastes, however, very many peoples hearts have been opened to the Word (of God) through Haugen’s music.

    Are Dominicans opposed to Haugen?. What could be more traditional than the Word of God?

    I do not see what is not reverential about ‘Shepherd me, O God’ for example.

  103. happy says:

    Who even IS this guy?!!?
    I can’t believe there is this many posts on him. I looked up all his music and I have never even heard of him. I don’t think any of his music is used in Mass here!

  104. John Quinn says:

    happy

    If you google into Wikipedia ‘Marty Haugen’ there is quite an intersting and lengthy article.

  105. Keith Toepfer says:

    Mr. Quinn,

    I neither know nor suspect that Dominicans “are opposed to Haugen” or even to his music for that matter. And I am not “opposed to Haugen,” I simply find that small portion of his liturgical music to which I have been exposed disappointing, often to the point of becoming an obstacle to worship. I will grant from the outset that Haugen’s music is not as irritating as much of the popular Christian praise music most of which is actually performance, not congregational, music. But it is not Haugen’s lyrics which I principally find unsatisfying, it is his music.

    What I do know is that our liturgist, a former Dominican seminarian, is not a fan of the man’s music. He is however, an enthusiast for Gregorian chant and active in the New Liturgical Movement. Two years into his tenure the Masses at which the Traditional choir sings the parish has learned the Mass ordinary for the Community Mass (Proulx), the Missa de Angelis and Missa Orbis Factor. We have also had the Tudor Choir at a Dominican Rite Mass and the latter group has begun holding a series of concerts of period sacred music on selected Saturday evenings in the church. We have also done Franck, Byrd and Holst.

    Pax et bonum

    • John Quinn says:

      Is there a danger here? Because your liturgist is not a fan of the man’s music is, in my view, not a good enough reason to exclude Haugen’s psalm settings, hymns and Mass settings. (Many of which are aknowledged masterpieces and firm favo(u)rites.)

      As I have said before, any composer’s output is variable, and if something cannot be used as prayer, it should be abandoned.

  106. Just passing through says:

    John,

    At some point are you going to apologize to ASimpleSinner and Dr. Eric for the name calling and personal insults?

    • John Quinn says:

      Just passing thru’

      Point taken, Just Passing, apologies to asimplesinner & Dr Eric

      JQ

  107. Keith Toepfer says:

    Yes, Mr. Quinn, there is a danger there. It is, very explicitly that our liturgist will depart and be replaced by someone who will fit the musical mould which you apparently prefer. At which point I will searching desperately for the means to start an Anglican Use parish to replace the loss.

    Pax et bonum.

    P.S. “De gustibus non est disputandum.

  108. John Quinn says:

    I don’t prefer any musical mould. In my parish and diocese we use Byrd, plainsong, Orbis Factor, Proulx, Franck and Holst (have you tried his choral version of ‘All creatures of our God and king?’) alongside Haugen, Joncas and the St Louis Jesuits.

    As far as taste goes, I have never, for example, particularly liked the St Loius Jesuits, but many people do, and use their music as prayer.

    Whatever your taste, I don’t think that anyone would disagree that Haugen’s ‘Gather us in’ is a classic hymn.

  109. Happy : blessed are you that you’ve not been subjected to this c**p .
    Keith Toepfer : My parish is Benedictine ; ora et labora ; i think pax et bonum is more associated with Franciscans . John Michael Talbot is a franciscan who has composed some very worshipful contemporary music . he doesn’t do concerts , workshops & c. he does go to parishes for masses and worship ONLY .
    there is also the music of the st, louis jesuits , monks of the weston priory ( benedictines ) . all these & others have done good , tasteful contemporary music . i agree that much ‘ praise & worship music ‘ is really concert music .
    i also concede that haugen’s work is not c**p : c**p is at least good for fertilizer .
    haugen’s work is to music as thomas kinkaid’s painting is to art , except that , like an early Charles Ryder , he is an apt technician . both haugen and kinkaid excell at MARKETING .
    perhaps he’s one of the vatican’s sacred monkeys .
    i considered writing his name on a $1 bill (no 1 pound notes available) to put in the box by the church door but thought that to be extreme (having ANYONE sent down there) ; only found the alms box & knew it couldn’t be that box .
    will have to have the bed turned around so that our feet face east instead of west .

    • John Quinn says:

      Maybe we are getting off-topic here again. As far as I know, it is GIA who market Haugen’s music.

      In my view, he excells at writing good (sometimes great) congregational music.

      Have you read the chapter about the focus of worship in Marty’s book ‘To serve as Jesus did’?

      • Keith Toepfer says:

        Although the primary licensor of his music may be GIA, his work is also included in the periodical missalettes from OCP. My wife and I (in California from Seattle for my Mom’s funeral tomorrow) attended Mass yesterday at St. Irenaeus Parish in La Palma, CA, and I took the opportunity to check the Author Index in the one from OCP they use. Haugen had several hymns included.

        Pax et bonum

  110. John Quinn says:

    http://dimlamp.wordpress.com/2009/06/24/shepherd-me-o-god/

    Phiddleschtick – have a listen to this (has an excellent fiddle part

    John

  111. John Quinn says:

    Keith – have a listen to the above also.

    John

    • Keith Toepfer says:

      John Quinn,

      Thanks. I will give it a fair listen when I return home from my Mom’s funeral. At the moment I only have dial-up access.

      • John Quinn says:

        Keith T

        Sorry to hear of your loss. (I have found Ps (15) 16 ‘Keep me safe, O God’ a great comfort during bereavement)

        Best wishes
        John

    • Keith Toepfer says:

      Mr. Quinn,

      Okay. I listened to it. Nothing much there muscially to hold my interest. Not bad, just not particularly good (i.e., doesn’t evoke much of a mood or emotion in me). Sounds very like a lot of ‘romantic’ era stuff. I recognize there are people who like what I find saccharine, but the more I listen to that sort of music the more impatient I get for music that is ‘richer.’

      Pax et bonum.

  112. john : thanx . tried to listen , but youtube is blocked on this system . if there is another source , i’d be glad to give it a listening . it is a psalm setting used in our parish umpteen times a year , so i’m familiar with it but perhaps not with the fiddle part . if you know of it being written somewheres , i can read & play it knowing how the part fits in .
    condolences to keith .
    ora et labora
    both are or can be types of prayer . who said ‘ you are the only body Christ has on earth now ‘ ?
    in the rabinical tradition , it is permissable to argue that there is no G-d when you are the only person present to render aid .

    • John Quinn says:

      phiddleschtick

      I will try and find out if the violin part has been published.

      ‘Christ has no body but yours’ is the first line of a poem by Teresa of Avila (151-1582) called ‘Christ has no body’.

      There is a stunning choral setting of this by David Ogden (RSCM)

    • John Quinn says:

      phiddleschtick

      I have contacted my GIA rep, and he has informed me that there are instrumental parts for 2 violins, viola, cello and 2 C instruments. However, he does not know if this matches the Youtube entry.

      Hope this is of some help.

      John

  113. happy says:

    ooohhhh… OK, Did he write that or is that just him singing? I am familiar with that but I have heard it with the contemporary worship band in the Methodist Church. I am surprised to hear it connected to Catholic. We don’t do anything like that at Mass.

  114. John Quinn says:

    Happy,
    Why don’t you do anything like that at Mass? – Psalmody (especially in responsorial / antiphonal style) is central to Roman Catholic worship.

  115. happy says:

    We do a response, but it is nothing contemporary. When I looked him up I did not see anything that I recognized I will have to look to see who writes the songs we sing.

  116. John Quinn says:

    Joel is right – The Gloria from the Mass of Creation is good stuff:-

    • Keith Toepfer says:

      Better than ‘Shepherd me…’ although sounds like it is unison voices (why bother). No harmony, no depth. Okay for what it is, but a long way from what I find to be ‘good stuff.’

    • Robert says:

      I find this one a bit disconcerting. The organ part is somewhat loud and completely breaks my ability to meditate and pray with the text.

      The other problem is typical of contemporary Catholic Gloria music settings– that horrid refrain! There is absolutely no need for that musical refrain.

      Give me sung through glorias or give me death.

      What is the excuse for using a refrain in this? The choral part is not difficult.

      I would much prefer a plain song setting of the gloria.

      God bless,

      -Rob

      • Joel says:

        Far be it from me to be a Marty apologist, but this is a bad example of his Creation Mass Gloria. I have never heard a chior sing this one in unison. Usually the men sing harmony and the women sing in Latin. I agree that the organ here dominates too much and diminishes the experience. If you are ever in Las Vegas the Saint Joseph Husband of Mary parish does a good job with it and if you are ever in San Diego the Mission San Diego de Alcala chior does a good job (I have sung with both).

  117. John Quinn says:

    Another great song:-

  118. Keith Toepfer says:

    Different tune, same story. Causes me to want to observe that I really wish there were more musical theater in this country to keep songwriters like this employed writing other than what they consider ‘great worship music.’ Sorry, that’s just the way it is.

    Pax et bonum.

  119. happy says:

    ok… I am asking maybe I have been answered but I am not understanding. Marty Haugen wrote these songs? Correct? Yes… I have heard the Glory to God in the highest one, again, only in the Methodist Church. I have also heard it in contemporary charismatic worship services I have attended. Maybe I am in a different part of the country but our Mass songs are really different from this.

    What is the problem people have with Haugen? The contemporary part during Mass?

  120. Ruben Road says:

    To Keith Toepfer,

    Could you post a video or music that you consider ‘good stuff’ for comparison? Thanks!

  121. Keith Toepfer says:

    Missa Orbis Factor

    Byrd’s Ave Verum Corpus

    Thomas Tallis’ If Ye Love Me

    Victoria’s Requiem Kyrie

    Mozart Coronation Mass Gloria

    Or Palestrina, or Holst (e.g., Locus Iste), or Haydn, or Handel or Beethoven, etc. The musical patrimony of the Church.

    • John Quinn says:

      Keith T

      All good stuff, well, actually great stuff. However, I am not convinced that an average congregation could join in with Byrd’s ‘Ave Verum’ during the Communion procession, or sing any of the (superb) Sanctus settings by Haydn.

      Orbis Factor is a different matter, this is very singable for all and I love the way Marty Haugen has based his ‘Shepherd me, O God’ on this. (Note also that there is a direct quote from the above in Fr Mike Joncas’ ‘Eagles wings’.

  122. Nan says:

    Happy, it’s good that your Mass songs are different than this; Marty Haugen is not a Catholic, which is one problem and his songs are not necessarily theologically appropriate for Catholics, which is one issue. A separate issue is that they’re bland modern crap.

    • John Quinn says:

      Nan, why is it a problem that Marty Haugen is not a Catholic?

      His songs are nearly all scripture-based (or derived from scripture), so I do not see how they can be theologically inappropriate for any christians.

      What Catholic would object to phrases like ‘Christ is truly present here’ or ‘come, receive the Body [of Christ].

      Any composer’s output includes items that are bland. (Brahms, for example wrote well-crafted good music, but not everything was a masterpiece).

      I’m not sure if Haugen’s music is modern – it is not CCM like Matt Redman or Brian Doerksen for example.

      Would anyone on this forum disagree that ‘Gather us in is a masterpiece?

      • Robert says:

        John Quinn,

        I would have to disagree. I think it’s rather banal.

        What, by the way, is the meaning of the line, “we are the young, our lives are a myst’ry?” This one puzzles me.

        I must admit, I also dislike the self-consciousness exhibited in “give us the courage to enter the song.” That line has always taken me out of singing it. My best analogy is to a glass and light: the glass best facilitates the reception of light when it is completely pure and invisible. It is only when the glass is dirty that it draws attention to itself.

        Inasmuch as the song calls attention to itself, we are not paying to the light but to the glass. It’s a weird line precisely because it takes one out of the song to be self-reflective on the song. At a moment like this especially the song stops being a window on the divine.

        God bless,
        Rob

      • John Quinn says:

        Rob,
        It is not Haugen’s fault that you do not understand this line.

        Most people do.

        Haugen has always stressed that hymns and music should point past themselves.

        Augustine calls Christ ‘The new song’. When we sing the Word of God, we enter into this.

  123. John Quinn says:

  124. happy says:

    Wow… Keith, those ARE really beautiful. Unfortunately we don’t sing anything like that at our Mass either. We sing songs like “Be thou my vision”. I don’t know if that is Catholic or theologically correct, but that is what we sing. Kind of old regular songs.

    :)

  125. Robert :
    great response . then there are the songs that have been ‘ corrected ‘ to make them politically correct & not gender biased .
    Happy :
    and what’s wrong with ‘ be thou my vision ‘ , other than its being an irish hymn set to an irish tune ( slane ) and being not that long after the synod of whitby possibly a bit more orthodox than roman in outlook . how much else do we have that’s been sung for 1200 years ? aside from the bible ? i’d like to see more of the actual ‘folk’ music used , at least for the sunday nearest st. patric’s day for irish or the feast of st. andrew for scotch .

  126. there are some ‘hymns’ that i just refuse to sing or play in church or else where . i just politely (?) refrain from them . the so called ‘battle hymn of the republic’ (when G-D gets his dander up & starts trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored , i don’t think it will be glorious & i don’t think i’d like to be there —- bloody messy);
    an other would be ‘amazing grace’ .
    sorry ; way off topic here .
    nationality : virginian

  127. happy says:

    phiddlestchticks,
    nothing is “wrong” with it. I was pointing out the type of music at our Mass. I don’t ever hear anything like what Keith posted and I am not familiar with Marty Haugen.It was the answer back to this question:

    “Happy,
    Why don’t you do anything like that at Mass? – Psalmody (especially in responsorial / antiphonal style) is central to Roman Catholic worship.”

    I am new to the Catholic Church so I was just asking what the fuss was to elicit 148 responses. I am unfamiliar with this man.

  128. Nan says:

    John Quinn, he’s coming from a different world view than Catholics, with different teachings. If you scroll up to the top of the combox, you’ll see reference to MH using different phrasing than that which the Vatican requires. That’s a problem.

    phiddleshtick, but why would you want a protestant hymn anyway?

  129. Robert says:

    happy,

    Do you want to see the Church approved treasury of music? Check this out:

    http://www.musicasacra.com/2009/01/21/gregorian-missal-online/

    This has the Gregorian chant propers for every Sunday Mass in the ordinary form.

    It even has the gradual psalm instead of the responsorial psalm (which is a legitimate and valid option for every Mass).

    When one sings these propers one is truly “singing the Mass” rather than “singing at Mass.” And Mass deserves to be sung!

    And also check out the music for the ordinary here:

    http://www.christusrex.org/www2/cantgreg/kyriale_eng.html

    Listen to XI, Orbis Factor, which was mentioned above.

    This site also has recordings of the propers which I posted a link to above, here:

    http://www.christusrex.org/www2/cantgreg/all_masses.html

    This is the music by which to form your Catholic “ear” and by which to judge modern hymnody.

    God bless,
    Rob

    • John Quinn says:

      Rob,
      This is all very beautiful music, but who understands it? How many US and UK parishes have ever sung this? How many US and UK RC’s pray in Latin?

      Would it be better to sing the Word of God to appealing, popular and well-constructed melodies by Haugen, Haas, Hurd and Joncas?

      If the Bishops do come up with a list of approved hymns, I am confident that ‘Gather us in’ will be in it.

      • Keith Toepfer says:

        Mr. Quinn,

        If we don’t sing things because some (or even a significant number) don’t “understand it” we are (1) shortchanging those who do, and (2) adopting a very condescending posture for those who might be desirous of learning. But the bigger issue for me, personally, is that while you claim not to be a Haugen apologist you continually refer to what many of us consider mediocre (not necessarily bad, merely insipid, lukewarm, boring—choose whatever term for mediocrity you wish) music, and I am not addressing the lyrics. Further, by emphasizing unison singing, you take much of what might be interested if sung in harmony and reduce it to a one-dimensional tune. (Please note that I did not criticize the texts that Haugen uses, although I would do so for any musician for those work in which the text deviated on parts of the Mass Ordinary from those approved by the Bishops.)

        I find that, even when I don’t know the bass line, and (not being a competent sight reader) can’t quite pick it up from the organ, harmonious music stirs the emotions and helps me get out of my predominant mode of relating (I’m a thinking type in Myers-Briggs terms), and opens my heart to God, in a way that most unison singing simply cannot accomplish.

        Pax et bonum.

    • John Quinn says:

      Robert

      The (US) Bishops have expressed a preference for the responsorial psalm over the one in the gradual.

      John

      • Keith Toepfer says:

        Our parish most frequently uses the Gelineau tone (verses of the psalm sung in harmony, response sung by all in unison). But responsorial singing, I think, serves a different purpose than either congregational singing or singing of the mass. We (DL&M and choir) view singing as a part of the prayer life of the Church.

        Pax et bonum.

  130. Happy & Nan :
    i am a refugee from modern methodism , and a musician of sorts . the methodist & presbyterian hymnals (and the catholic collegeville) have good collections of hymns , some great , some not appropriate for catholic church . not all protestant hymns are heretical .
    i just find myself opting out of more & more of the ‘music’ at church .
    there is a book out there somewheres on why catholics can’t sing & it has to do with the ‘music’ to which we are subjected .
    an earlier reply commented that the heretics used songs to get & influence followers . that is true .
    some great music was also the result of various revivals & genuine expressions of faith in its many & varied facets (even amazing grace ).
    aside from music , for a fair & accurate treatment of revivals , see winky pratney’s ‘revival : its history & principles ‘. he even gives catholics credit .

  131. John Quinn says:

    Keith T

    I have never referred to any mediocre music.

    The emphasis on unison singing is not mine.

    See ‘Sing to the Lord’ USCCB

    ‘The congregation commonly sings unison melodies, which are more suitable for generally unrehearsed community singing. This is the primary song of the Liturgy.’

    There is, of course, plenty of scope for choir-only singing at various parts of the Mass. (See above document).

    I think that we all should know some Latin e.g. the benediction hymn ‘Pange lingua’.

    However, again see the above document, where the Bishops have shown some reservation about teaching Latin to people who have never known it.

  132. John Quinn says:

    Keith T

    I agree with this. Because some people ‘don’t understand’ something, this is not good enough reason not to sing it.

    For example, there are numerous scriptural and theological references in ‘Gather is in’ that may need explaining.

    The reference to the third form of the penetential rite for example ‘Gather us in…’; psalm (130) 131 ‘haughty’; Augustine ‘enter the song’ [Christ].

    I am less sure about learning Latin in scripture. The policy at V2 was to translate from the original to the vernacular.

    However, Latin is part of our culture, and the Church has asked us to be familiar with the Sanctus and other chants etc. – I see nothing wrong (and everything right) with this.

    Gregorian chant is by it’s nature monodic, and is not suitable for harmony singing.

    However, many Haugen pieces have 4-part harmonies, for example ‘Bread of life from heaven’.

  133. Robert says:

    John Quinn,

    I do sincerely hope that Haugen intended to write in the ‘enter the song’ as a reference to Christ, but I will assure you that virtually no one is aware of that if it is the case.

    You object, “but who understands it?” Well, very few people because our bishops and pastors have dropped the ball. But it wouldn’t take very long to start understanding it again. It would be easy to reintegrate all of the Latin ordinary within a year at most parishes, even doing it in small, step by step fashion. This would truly be an accomplishment of the second Vatican Council.

    “The policy at V2 was to translate from the original to the vernacular.”

    Not exactly.

    Sacrosanctum Concilium says,

    “Particular law remaining in force, the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites.”

    Now, as you note, it says that the vernacular can be of advantage to the congregation and so it says,

    “This will apply in the first place to the readings and directives, and to some of the prayers and chants, according to the regulations on this matter to be laid down separately in subsequent chapters.”

    But the idea that the second Vatican Council wanted to eliminate the Latin ordinary… is simply not in the text.

    And although it does allow that the ordinary may be in the vernacular, it nevertheless strongly warns that,

    “Nevertheless steps should be taken so that the faithful may also be able to say or to sing together in Latin those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them.”

    And paragraph 116 notes the primacy of Gregorian chant.

    It is not, in fact, better to use the songs of Haugen and co. The Church expressly says that Gregorian chant has the first place in sacred music. Indeed, while Haugen’s music may be superficially more appealing, with the proper instruction the Gregorian chant shows itself to be far deeper– but of course we need to have our ears and hearts made ready for it. Gregorian chant isn’t necessarily appealing right out of the box for most people, but Mass is not entertainment, so this isn’t a critical objection.

    As it is, we need to return to the practice of singing Mass, and not just singing hymns at Mass, and returning to the Gregorian settings and chants will facilitate this. The propers are an integral part of the Mass, and having a hymn sandwich instead of the proper chants is simply a disservice to the people of God, who deserve to have the *proper* Scripture parts sung at Mass. I have no objection, of course, to parishes using adopted vernacular propers. There are several of these available freely on the internet.

    As to the gradual psalm: indeed, but the hermeneutic of continuity favors the gradual psalm more. It is more contemplative, and in the midst of a Mass which often (through no fault of its own) can become too “busy” it would be a nice step back.

    Most of us have become overly wary of the responsorial psalm by many of the lackluster settings, but I must say that the Chabanel psalm settings is a very interesting project, and it seems to have a very high quality. I encourage you to check them out John Quinn, starting with this lovely sample here:

    http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/2009/07/another-chabanel-psalm-sample.html

    God bless,
    Rob

    • John Quinn says:

      Are we maybe getting off-topic here? It is not Haugen’s fault that many parishes do not sing Latin/Plainchant or the propers.

      I would have thought that most people would understand the instruction to go out and live ‘lives that are holy, lives that are true’.

  134. Keith Toepfer says:

    Mr. Quinn,

    Yes, Gregorian chant is monophonic. I included it because it is a form that, for many (myself included), is very supportive of reflection and contemplation. And there is something about it which lends it the complexity of ‘resolving.’ As someone who is a simple chorister and not a trained musician, I use the quoted word with some reservation, but intend it in the sense of ‘being moving’ while also supporting contemplation.

    Pax et bonum.

  135. John Quinn says:

    Rob,
    I have checked out the Chabanel pslams. These are indeed high quality. However, they (to me anyway) sound very much like what we already have – Bevenot; Proulx; Waddell; Murray; Gelineau etc.

    Hymns are, of course, optional.

    Not all Gregorian Chant is good – Some is too difficult, some has poor meandering melodies.

    We have a duty to be obedient to the Bishops – they have a preference for the responsorial psalm (See ‘Music in divine worship’ for the place of Latin.)

    It is not Haugen’s fault that some people have written lacklustre psalm settings.

    See Verbum Dei for the translation policy – Original to vernacular.

    Rob, if the reference to ‘enter the song’ is not the Augustinian ‘Christ – the new song’ – what does it refer to?

    Please, do not get me wrong, I am all for more, rather than less, Latin/Plainsong.

    I am less sure about the timescale. You say ‘re-integrate’, but how much was ever sung in the first place?. I would think we are talking about 100-200 years to do this.

  136. Robert says:

    John Quinn,

    God bless, indeed, I would say most of our psalm settings are done more of a disservice by how they are sung and not so much by how they are written.

    You are right in saying that not all the Gregorian chant is good– it is a huge corpus and quite frankly, you are right that some of it is too difficult (when speaking of the propers, that is). But I think when moving towards the ideal usage, literally “progressive solemnity” in that we would be progressing step by step to the full integration of the chant with mass, we would start with the introit and communion chants first. The communion chants are usually very simple, and the introit while more difficult is rarely as hard as some of the Alleluia or Gradual settings– very doable as long as they are practiced.

    You are right in pointing out that ideal usage is often far from the actual usage, and not just in the post-conciliar period. I definitely don’t just blame the Church after Vat II for this problem, it was an existing problem. But, I have to say, it’s an existing problem which the Church has been trying to solve for a long time. The documents from the Second Vatican Council on sacred music are in continuity with the documents which preceded them from the magisterium, and the Church has been consistent in advocating for chant as having the prime place in the liturgy.

    The problem, of course, is the low mass mentality. The Church has been trying to move away from the idea, wrongly cultivated, that the low mass is an alright alternative normatively. Rather, the high mass is the regular form of Mass. Or, as Aristotle over at “the Recovering Choir Director” has quipped: the “missa privata” is really the “missa deprivata” because we are deprived of the fullness of sensory experience. In the Eastern liturgy they never lose sight of the essential connection between the liturgy and the sung text.

    So “re-integrating” when looking at the broader context (including the Gregorian propers) really would probably take, as you note, 100-200 years for the whole Church, if she made a concerted effort. But when I say a parish could reintegrate chant within a year, I mean chiefly the Ordinary of the Mass– let’s say, the Orbis Factor setting of the Ordinary for the Kyrie, Sanctus, Agnus Dei, the Missa de Angelis Gloria and Credo III. That’s very easy to get over the course of a year during Ordinary time. But there’s no reason to limit oneself to that… but a repertoire can be built up over time.

    And what about the propers? Well, I see no reason why an individual parish couldn’t do it reasonably well within a decade. If you dedicate the resources and the practice time, it will happen. And what happens when the children who grew up hearing these chants start to sing with the choirs? We are in the unfortunate situation of never having heard them in our lives, but if someone has grown up with them surely they will catch on quicker.

    As to Verbum Dei– if we’re talking about Scripture translations, that generally you are right. I don’t deny that critical editions of the Scriptures ought to be collated with attention to the original language. However, it must be admitted that the liturgical language of the Roman rite is Latin, and as such the Latin version of the psalms is the *liturgical* text which we must work with (currently the Nova Vulgata), and so translations really need to be accurate to that.

    “Rob, if the reference to ‘enter the song’ is not the Augustinian ‘Christ – the new song’ – what does it refer to?”

    I always assumed that it referred to the ditty we were singing, namely, Haugen’s hymn. It always seemed to me that the hymn begins by focusing us on our presence, 1) ‘here in this place’, where we ask God to 2) ‘gather us in’ i.e., to unite us and prepare us for the liturgical action. Because of the specificity of the song in the beginning, I always assumed that by the time we got to, “give us the courage to enter the song” that we were referring specifically to *this* song, which the congregation is singing *now* which is supposed to be serving the purpose of unifying and preparing the congregation for the liturgical action.

    God bless,
    Rob

  137. Anonymous says:

    Thanks Rob, I agree with all of this except the last paragraph. I will get back later to explain my interpretion of the Hymn (not ditty) being discussed.

    All the best

    John
    PS
    Another thread maybe, but has anyone tried the WLP ‘Psallite’ propers?

  138. Robert says:

    John Quinn,

    My apologies for the irreverent reference (“ditty”) to Haugen’s hymn. Please take my alliterative allusion as the normative name. :)

    God bless,
    Rob

  139. Keith Toepfer says:

    Robert and John Quinn,

    Based solely on my experience at my parish (my first and current Catholic parish), size about 1000 households, and after about two years or a bit more under a dedicated Director of Liturgy and Music (as well as choir director), I think 100-200 years a bit pessimistic, unless you mean to accomplish a full transition. In the DL&M’s tenure the parish has now become comfortable with three Mass ordinaries, the De Angelis, the Proulx Community Mass and Miss Orbis Factor. (Kyrie, Gloria, Sanctus, Memorial Acclamation, and Amen). And I don’t think my parish is all that atypical (with the possible exception of the DL&M). The Introit and Communion Proper are chanted by the Traditional Choir (all volunteers) at the 10:30 & 12:00 masses.

    Pax et bonum.

  140. John Quinn says:

    Rob,
    Why translate the psalms from the vulgate? (a translation).

    Surely any translation should be from the original.

    John

  141. recently noticed that the collegeville hymnal hath both nihil obstat & imprimator , whilst the newer more modern gather hymnal , which includeth many a marty haugen ‘hymn’ , hath neither imprimator nor nihil obstat .

  142. Anonymous says:

    The Word of God does not need a nihil obstat & imprimator.

  143. Anonymous says:

    The Black Cordelias, Keith T & Phiddschtick are allergic to the above.

    • Keith Toepfer says:

      To assert that I am allergic to the Word of God is a rhetorical leap unsubstantiated by any comment I have ever made, here or elsewhere. I believe, if you read my comments more carefully, it is the musical quality (or more fittingly, lack thereof) in which I find what little of Haugen’s (or Alstott’s) work lacking. I made no argument whatsoever concerning any shortcoming in their theology or scriptural usage.

      Pax et bonum

  144. Anonymous says:

    Marty Haugen has pointed out that ‘Christ is truly present here’.

    I agree.

    asimplesinner says ‘yech’.

  145. John Quinn says:

    Fr J. objecets to ‘the words’ of Haugen’s songs.

    The words Haugen uses are the Words of God.

  146. John Quinn says:

    The Word of God is not ‘insipid’

  147. John Quinn says:

    Fr J asks if the word ‘haughty’ belongs in a hymn.

    It certainly belongs in the Bible – see Isaiah & the psalms.

  148. John Quinn says:

    asmiplesinner does not like to sing ‘I am the bread of life’.

    Most RC’s do. (See Toolan /Berthier)

  149. anonymous :
    so THAT’S where the rash , the sneezing & wheezing came from ! (and thanks for all those great tunes you and Trad. made !)

    i am deeply ashamed to admit that since i ‘got saved’ in 1974 , i’ve only completely read the american standard , new american standard , new jerusalem (including all the footnotes) (twice for the new jerusalem) , revised standard (catholic edition with apocrypha) bibles and am now reading the authorized (authorized by hrh james VI) bible including the apocrypha , as the original did .
    as far as i know , the canon of scripture was finally closed at the council of trent in the 16th century which somewhat predates mr. haugen .
    i am a bit skeptical about the use of G-D’s words .
    Jesus said on an occaision ‘ Go thou and do likewise ‘ which can be interestingly paired with ‘ and judas went out and hanged himself.’
    it could be argued that the transcendant Christ is everywhere , scripturally that He is whereever two are gathered in His Name , canonically present as the consecrated host (yes , i actually believe that).
    no the bible is not insipid . i wouldn’t have read it a second ime if it had been or if i had thought it so .

  150. John Quinn, are you a fight looking for a place to happen? Like a “dog returning to its vomit” (cf. Proverbs 26:11, 2 Peter 2:22) you show up unprovoked every so often in an otherwise dead or dying combox from a post that dates back 18 months to prod and provoke commentators who have not set pixels to screen here for months!

    The music of Haugen is of such value to you, a true treasure to your heart, that it is well beyond my interest or bother to debate its merits. What good would it do?

    But beyond the usefulness or value of the music, the debate about the music or its merits, I know ultimately I lack the interest, inclination, time or energy to even begin to have an interest in going rounds with you when you resort to such silliness & implied false dichotomies such as:

    # Anonymous* *(As moderator, I can see the ISPs. This is the ISP from which all the other JQ posts originate, so it is a case where either you forgot to log in or wanted to leave seem “legion”)Says:
    October 19, 2009 at 12:30 pm | Reply

    Marty Haugen has pointed out that ‘Christ is truly present here’.

    I agree.

    asimplesinner says ‘yech’.

    The rhetorical equivalent of walking away from an argument about the merits of the “gold standard” muttering “well at least I don’t kick puppies!”

    # John Quinn Says:
    October 19, 2009 at 1:33 pm | Reply

    Fr J. objecets to ‘the words’ of Haugen’s songs.

    The words Haugen uses are the Words of God.

    # John Quinn Says:
    October 19, 2009 at 1:49 pm | Reply

    The Word of God is not ‘insipid’

    # John Quinn Says:
    October 19, 2009 at 1:56 pm | Reply

    Fr J asks if the word ‘haughty’ belongs in a hymn.

    It certainly belongs in the Bible – see Isaiah & the psalms.

    John the dichotomy I come to is this EITHER you lack the intellectual capacity to NOT conflate disliking the work and style of Haugen as being the same as not liking text of scripture OR you very possibly DO have that capacity but choose to take the intellectually dishonest route of leaving fallacious insinuation that somehow to not like the music of Haugen demonstrates I – or others – don’t like or get scripture.

    Enough is enough. I would sooner be interested in dedicating my life to performing the works of Mr. Haugen on a bongo in Time Square wearing only moon boots than spend ANY time trying to rebut or debate you in the logical fallacies you time and again present here.

    As an act of charity I am closing this combox. How is that charitable? Well, if you lack that capacity to understand that not liking the work of Haugen is not the equivalent of disliking or not understanding scripture, than to allow you to continue posting such nonsense after a year and a half on a piece I wrote in a combox I opened on a blog I own is like allowing the Emperor to continue to run about naked…

    OR…

    If you DO understand that the comments you leave like graffiti in this forum are logically errant… If THAT is the case, than I am simply playing host and offering you a place to insult and ridicule folks with statements that attack arguments they did NOT make (implying they did!)… To continue to offer this occasion of sin – especially in light of how it has been directed at my friend Fr. J, a man who has given his life to Jesus and His Church as a priest… Well that is NOT one more sin I want heaped on the indictment awaiting me on judgement Day when there will be no secrets and I will have to answer for and make account before all who ever have been or will be for my actions.

    More succinctly, I won’t leave this combox open for you to either display your ignorance, or display your insults. Go open your own blog.

    The comments are closed.

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  152. […] to inflict the faithful with awful dreck from the pen of a man who admits many Catholics consider as “personally  responsible for destroying Roman Catholic worship”. I mean Haugen is not even Catholic. We have almost 2,000years of musical heritage to draw upon for […]

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    Marty Haugen Strikes Again | The Black Cordelias

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