Did Jesus Dishonor His Mother?

HDavis Something this important should have at least some scriptual example or support.

Bread From heaven:
Only if one believes in Sola Scriptura which we do not since it is not found anywhere is Scripture. I have no idea why Protestants who profess to believe nothing EXCEPT what can be found in scripture believe in Sola Scriptura when it CANNOT be found in Scripture. This is very strange.

HDavis We are instructed to pray to god no one else.


Bread From heaven:
Where????

HDavis On earth we pray for each other as we are in the flesh and need prayer.


Bread From heaven:
Where are prayers for one another alive, in the body of Christ limited ONLY to those who are living on Earth in Time? That is your bias. It is not in Scripture.

HDavis On earth Jesus all but ignored his mother’s request at the marriage feast at Cana.”What is that to me and you women? My time has not come.
His mother said to the servants, Whatever He may say to you,do it.”


Bread From heaven:
I am amazed by your assertion that Jesus ignored His mother’s request. He absolutely did as she requested. He, in obedience to the commandment, honored His mother. She trusted in His answer to her request. The phrase, “What is that to me and you, woman.” is a Hebrew idiom. The use of woman is generally a sign of respect in this ancient culture unlike in our own. But, because sons did not usually address their mothers in this way, even though respectful, we see it as a direct allusion to Eve and the promise in

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her seed;
He shall bruise you on the head,
And you shall bruise him on the heel.”


What is that to me and you
had a flexible meaning depending upon context. It could mean a disagreement and rejection of another. But it could also mean,the free consent of one party to the request of another party, with our without a sense of reluctance. The way Protestants typically interpret this passage would entail Jesus the God/Man dishonoring his mother in direct disobedience to the commandment to honor your father and mother. Protestants never think of this. They do not mean to have Jesus sin in such a way. But that is what happens when you try to interpret scripture out of context of the culture and history of the Church.

HDavis Mary is standing “outside”with His ‘brothers and sisters’ at a gathering Jesus was teaching and Jesus said ‘Who is my mother?… Whoever does the will of God is my mother.’


Bread From heaven:
Surely Mary did the will of God. Again, Jesus did not in any way dishonor His mother here even though Protestants want to see Him being dismissive of her in order to bolster their claim that Catholics honor Mary too much. He did, however, want to emphasize that obedience makes one a part of His intimate family.

HDavis In His kingdom there are no special believers as she like all other believers with no power or authority except that which has been given by man!


Bread From heaven:
All the Grace that Mary possesses was given her, not by man but by God. And there certainly is a hierarchy of honor in the Body of Christ. We see Jesus, taking Peter, James, and John with him and leaving the other disciples. These were His inner circle. Mary was chosen above all women to bear and mother the God/Man Jesus. This was a high honor.

HDavisBut on the other hand,the apostles had power to heal,raise the dead,help and guide the church until the New Testament was completed.But,we are not told to pray to them in heaven!We are not told they intercede for us in any scripture.We are told the Holy Spirit does intercede for us.Romans 8: 26-7


Bread From heaven:

John 20:30 Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. 31 But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
John 21: 25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written.

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7 Responses to Did Jesus Dishonor His Mother?

  1. Ronald says:

    I will state the claim for One Gospel that is found in the scriptures.

    Galatians chapter 1 verse 8 ,9:
    ” But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed”. That expressly states there is no extra to the gospel as taught by Christ and his apostles. If there is, though it were taught by an angel from heaven, we must reject it.

    1. Did the apostles or Christ teach that Mary was the mother of God? No.
    2. Did Christ or the apostles teach the rosary or any of the mysteries of Mary? No.
    3. Did Christ or the apostles teach that Mary were the queen of heaven? No. If Mary were “Queen of Heaven”, it necessitates that she must be the greatest person on earth. Yet we read in Luke.7 v 28 (also Matthew.11:11), “I tell you, among those born of women there is no one greater than John…”; clearly stating John the Baptist to be the greatest person ever, ahead of Moses, ahead of Elijah, ahead of Abraham, ahead of Mary.
    4.Did Christ or the apostles teach the Benediction, purgatory, prayer to saints? No. Christ is the Great Lone Intercessor between God and man (1.Timothy.2 v 5). In Romans chapter 8, we are told how the spirit of God pleads with God on our behalf. You will argue that the saints are living souls and thus can pray for us, but they are NOT omnipotent (only God is) and they do not have the ability to pray for all people. Also, in Revelations and Hebrews we are told that they enter into rest, and the Bible does not say anything about them praying for anyone in the earth.

    What of celibacy? Paul warns that ungodly men will forbid people to marry. Are you not bothered that Paul teaches that a bishop is to be the husband of one wife (not to mean that an unmarried person can not become bishop but that they must not be polygamous) yet Rome forbids any bishop to marry?
    And; we know that Mary had other children after Jesus (Jude, James and perhaps others). We read in Matthew 12v36 where they come looking for him and in John chapter 7 :3-5 we read the following:

    Jesus’ brothers said to him, “Leave Galilee and go to Judea, so that your disciples there may see the works you do. No one who wants to become a public figure acts in secret. Since you are doing these things, show yourself to the world.” For even his own brothers did not believe in him.

    So she is not the “ever virgin” as Rome maintains. You need to come out of Rome that you may not partake of her iniquities.

  2. bfhu says:

    Ronald,
    You are confusing two things because of your Protestant tradition of Sola Scriptura. The quote from St. Paul is certainly true. However, you cannot tell from the Bible exactly what that “Gospel” was. I contend that that Gospel was exactly as the Catholic Church teaches today. Because historically our teachings go back to the 1st century. You assume that it is the Gospel contained only in the Gospels, the New Testament or maybe even the whole Bible. However, St. Paul NEVER says this. He says, “the Gospel we preach”. Since you were not alive to hear what Paul preached you cannot know. You CAN know only what he wrote in his letters that have come down to us in the New Testament.

    St. Paul nor any other writer of sacred scripture ever said anything close to the Protestant tradition of Sola Scriptura. It is not to be found anywhere in the Bible. What the Catholic Church teaches she has taught for 2000 years. Historically it is much more likely to be the same Gospel St. Paul was referring to than the Protestant Gospel born a mere 500 years ago; 1500 years after the birth of Christ.

    Do you believe Jesus was God? I do. Therefore, Mary, who gave birth to Him and raised Him, is His mother. Because He is God, Mary is the mother of God. Very simple and logical. This in no way means that Mary preceded God in time or is not herself a creature. But, she certainly is the Mother of God!

    The Rosary is a devotional prayer. It is not mandatory and was created long after the New Testament was written. It is just a meditative prayer. It does not need to be in the New Testament any more than any other prayer you might pray.

    We call her the Queen of Heaven because in Revelation 12 she is depicted that way. It is a title of honor and in no way implies that she is equal to the Holy Trinity. So, do you think John is greater than Jesus? I think you may be interpreting that incorrectly. Jesus was born of a woman and I think He is certainly greater than John or any other human.

    The Benediction is a prayer. Do you restrict your prayers only to words found in Scripture?

    Purgatory was believed in by the Jews and carried over into Christianity and no doubt taught to the apostles by Jesus.

    Prayers to Saints is merely asking for them, souls alive in Heaven and a part of the Body of Christ, to join their prayers to ours to our Lord. Nothing is wrong with this and since the Bible does not command us to only believe things that can be found in scripture, we are not obligated to obey Protestant ideas and traditions.
    Besides, John says that all that Jesus did and taught could not be written or the world could not contain all the books. We don’t think the Saints are omnipotent or omnipresent, either. It is only by the power of God that they hear our prayers.

    The Church does not forbid marriage. Anyone who wants to marry certain is free to marry. Celibacy is a discipline for those who wish to be priests and some of these will be chosen as bishops. Just like married men must be faithful to one woman. In the early church celibacy was not a required discipline. Priests were chosen from among some married men. But they probably gave up their conjugal rights. Have you never noticed the scripture that says, “some became eunuchs for the sake of the Kingdom of God”?

    Mary had no other children. The word translated for brothers and sisters is the same that St. Paul and others use to address , say the Ephesians. We don’t think they were all of Paul’s siblings but brothers in Christ. The Aramaic, which the Jews at this time spoke had no word for cousin, uncle, aunt etc. adelphos was used for sibling, kinsman, brethren. Your interpretation is legitimate but it is not the ONLY way those passages could be interpreted. Since, historically, we know Mary had no other children we interpret these scriptures to mean “Kinsmen of Jesus”.

    So Mary certainly is Ever Virgin.

  3. Ronald says:

    So, apart from dogmatically believing Rome, do you really think that the gospel Jesus and the apostles believe is more than we know. I am not saying we have all their words, but we do have the full gospel, otherwise it would make no sense warning us against believing another gospel. The only interpretation to get from that is that we believe the gospel only as we know Jesus and the apostles taught it. Anything extra to that, we must reject.

    Also, you contradict yourself by saying “what the Catholic Church teaches she has taught for 2000 years”, and almost in the same breath say, ” (the Rosary) was created long after the New Testament was written”. Unfortunately I do not know enough of early Christian theology, but as far as I know, none of the early church fathers Polycarp, Ignatius, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Justin Martyr etc taught the rosary, the assumption, prayer to the saints, holy water, etc. If you can provide me material where they did, I would be happy to look into it.

    I do not have a big problem sayin “Mary is the mother of God” loosely as in saying she is the mother of Jesus, but when you make that her title, I think it becomes hugely blasphemous. God certainly has no mother and the Blessed Mary was chosen so God could carry out His work of incarnation. She did not “beget” Jesus, she only carried Him and the title really is cringe-worthy.

    When Jesus says that John is the greatest ever born of a woman, of course He does not mean that John is greater than Him. He has always been and He makes that point all throughout. But He clearly singles out John as the greatest of all mortal people of whom mary is numbered. I would even say that that scripture shows how Mary can not be rightfully called the mother of God. Jesus is of course aware that He is greater than any man, or all of us added up, but, he says “of all those born of a woman” which He would be but He is obviously excluded as He has always existed. Jesus’ words are plain and you can argue with Him whether John truely is the greatest. Revelations chapter 12 does not refer to Mary, but even if it were, it does not say she is “crowned Queen of Heaven” as Rome teaches.
    Don’t you think that if Mary becoming Queen of heaven were part of the gospel, Jesus or one of the apostles would teach it? As they did not, is it not “another gospel”?
    What about the claims of Bernard of Clairvaux and Bridget that she is the gate to heaven, and that all who will go to heaven must go through her? Are they not contrary to John.14v6, “I am THE way…no one comes to the Father except through Me” and Acts.4:12 “There is no other name given under heaven” (apart from the name of Jesus; see verse 11) “whereby we must be saved”?
    And, by the way, I have been a Catholic and we did pray to Judas Thaddeus, Francis Xavier and certainly to Mary, etc; so please stop this “we ask them to join to our prayers” thing. Jesus taught explicitly how we ought to pray and He said we should pray “our Father in heaven…” Paul reiterates this in Romans chapter 8 saying that we pray “Abba Father…” without invoking the names of the dead saints.
    We have so many patterns of prayer in the Bible. Nehemiah, daniel, Habakkuk, Jeremiah, etc. There is not ONE case where any of the saints prayed to a former saint or asked them to pray for (or with) them. Surely if dead saints could pray for the living, Elisha would have called on Elijah in prayer, and the latter prophets would have called to Moses, Samuel etc.

    About Mary having other children it is plain for any who will see. In matthew the brothers and the mother want to speak with Jesus. In John.7v3, they tell Him to go make a name for Himself. In Galatians.1v20, Paul says he saw “no one except James, the Lord’s brother”. Jude starts his letter with “Jude a servant of Jesus and brother of James”(obviously preferring to be known as Jesus’ slave than “brother”. I would wish you would refer to Mary as Jesus’ slave instead of mother in the same respect). But most conclusively, we see these truths in Matthew.13v55 and Mark.6v3, “is this not the carpenter’s son? Isn’t his mother’s name Mary, and aren’t his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas? Aren’t his sisters here with us?” Jesus’ siblings names are stated! James, Joseph Judas (or Jude), Simon and even sisters. Of course Mary was virgin when she gave birth to her firstborn Jesus, but, if you believe the Bible, you can not maintain that she is ever virgin. She clearly had other children after our Lord.

  4. bfhu says:

    I do not have time to respond to this. I am going with the confirmation students on Retreat this weekend in the mountains.

  5. SR says:

    Dear Ronald,

    I like your questions and good one’s they are. Maybe I can help you also understand a little better. I am not going to give Scripture Reference from reading your comment I think you know it is in there. If not I know you can find it.

    1. Was it taught Mary was the Mother of God? Well I think that is kind of a given since she was the Mother of Jesus. Elizabeth called her, “The Mother of my Lord.” Lord, God, Jesus it is all the same. When Catholics call Mary “The Mother of God” we are referring to her as Elizabeth did.

    2. Was it taught in Scripture Mary was the Queen of Heaven? She is the mother of a King for one thing. This would make her, a “Queen Mother.” Okay some Scripture Ref. Go to Rev. Chapters 11-12. Read it as not divided by Chapter because that is the way the Bible was written. John saw the Ark of the Covenant. Mary, because her womb contained all the OT Ark of the Covenant did. Then slide onto 12 and she had a crown of twelve stars on her head. She was crowned in heaven I am sure by her Son. Usually if one is given a crown they also have a title that goes along with it. Being she is the mother of the King in heaven, this would pretty much make her the Queen Mother.

    3. Celibacy: As was stated Jesus praised the Eunuchs. If I remember correctly they had themselves castrated. Also it says in Revelations those who were celibate follows Jesus around in heaven. Paul also said, that if one can remain unmarried, he should do so, but if he cannot then he needs to marry.

    4. Jesus having brothers and sisters. In the Greek there were no words for cousins or any other type of family member such as this. They were called “brothers” because they were a unity of believers for one, and the other is this is how people back then referred to their family members. If you read the Gospels and study the Apostles you will see James had a different mother. Also in Acts Peter calls those “his brothers” but there were 120 of them. We know Peter did not have 120 brothers. Also when Jesus rose He told Mary to go and tell His brothers, which were the Apostles. So you have to kind of learn what to take literally and what not to. If Jesus would of had brothers or sisters, where were they at the foot of the Cross? This is why Mary had to be given to John. Under Jewish Tradition Mary would have gone to the next son. There were not any sons there to give Mary to.

    5. The Rosary: We as Catholics believe we have a spiritual family as well as an earthly one. The Saints are not dead they are alive in heaven. Hebrews tells us we are “surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses. They are cheering us on in the race on earth. For one the great cloud means a huge theater and these are the Saints in heaven helping us on earth. We think no more of asking Mary or any other Saint to pray for us, as I would think to ask it of you. (By the way please do so:>) Also Mary made a prophecy in her Canticle saying “all generations will call be blessed.” The Rosary does this. The Prayer of the Rosary is actually in Scripture for you will find the Words, “Blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your womb.” Jesus did fulfill her request at Cana by changing the water into wine. She made this request to Him, as in the Jewish Tradition the head matriarch would have put this wedding on. For her to have run out of wine would have been horrible and she would no longer been the matriarch. So Mary interceded on her behalf and Jesus did as she asked of Him.

    6. Teaching another Gospel: What did Paul teach? We see he taught Tradition telling others to “hang onto them.” He taught the Holy Eucharist saying many were dying for the way they were acting towards this. He said he gave to them what the Lord had given to him, which was the Eucharist. He taught about the cleansing and being saved as if by fire, which is purgatory. All that means is the place our refinement takes place. The Church gave it that name just as the Protestants gave the name Rapture. Neither one of those words are in the Bible. It does not mean the event is not going to take place.

    So anyone who does not teach the Eucharist, Tradition, Celibacy or marriage, the refinement of purgatory, and much more is truly teaching another gospel. The Catholic Church teaches all of these things.

    God Bless, SR

  6. SR says:

    Ronald,

    I also wanted to add one more thing on the Saints. We see at the Transfiguration where Moses and Elijah came to talk to Jesus and they had been dead a long long time. Of course we do not know what the conversation was about, but could they have come to help Him? I would have given anything to be a fly on a shoulder at that time, wouldn’t you? God Bless, SR

  7. Anonymous says:

    all i want to say is that i may not be all bible knowledgable, but i do read, and protestants say this about the bible and this and ive read things my self about tradition, and to go by tradition and that catholics dont repent and that they arent sved and so forth, but christians of which there are thousands and wantint to interpret at there own method, but when one person doesnt like the tradition of a certain church then they go looking for another or build it and take people from one congregation or for this matter from a catholic congregation, and fooling them with the fact that they have the perfect gospel or truth in interpreting it and aside from anything else they are in truth so please follow us, then they will tell you the great apocalyptic church is the catholic because they have people all dazed and in the incorrect word.

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