Conversation: Indulgences

Q. I have belonged to an organization of believers, the Presbyterian Church USA as you may recall, that started to espouse beliefs that were in direct contradiction to the Word of God, such as acceptance of homosexuality even though it is an abomination to our God. When these things started gaining large scale support in this body, I felt I needed to remove myself and my family from this organization because a true Body of Christ does not violate the clear essential teachings of the Bible, plain and simple. But isn’t this exactly what happened with the Reformation?

A. Yes, in one way, the seeking of purity of faith.

The official position of the PCUSA is that all sex outside of traditional marriage is a sin. But dissent from this is widespred.

Q. When it became clear to Martin Luther that the Catholic Church was teaching and practicing violations of the Word of God, he had to make his stand.

A. It is a misunderstanding of the situation to believe that the Catholic Church was teaching, as in had doctrine, that Martin Luther objected to in the beginning. It simply was not the Catholic Church that was teaching incorrectly. It was human persons that misrepresented the teaching of the Catholic Church.

We have a similar situation in our time. For instance, it would be incorrect to assert that the Bible teaches that loving your neighbor means it is perfectly OK for homosexuals to marry and indulge in sexual pleasure. We know that the Bible does teach us to love our neighbor but it does not teach that the practice of homosexuality is morally good. And yet, there are “Christians” who teach this and assert that it is legitimate Christian teaching based on the Bible.

Now, we can clearly see that it is NOT the Bible that teaches this abuse of Christian doctrine but human persons claiming the authority of the Bible who are the ones in error.

And so it was in Luther’s Germany. Human persons taught and believed error. The teaching and doctrine of the Catholic Church was perfectly fine. The error taught in the name of the Catholic Church was wrong and brought calumny upon the Catholic Church

Selling indulgences was clearly not the official teaching of the Catholic Church because, Saxony and Spain forbade this method of fundraising in their territories. It was an abuse of the doctrine of indulgences in Germany, not an all inclusive Church teaching. And not taught all over the world either. It was not Catholic Doctrine.

Now, the Catholic Church does still offer indulgences. It is a complicated subject made even more difficult to understand when one comes to it with deep antipathy and prejudice regarding the whole notion of indulgences. At least try to read some of this. –>Catholic Encyclopedia: Indulgences . It is a complicated subject and easy to understand if you read the whole article how the common people could easily misunderstand, even if Fr. Tetzel taught it correctly. I am not saying he did.There are confilicting opinions.

There was corruption in the Catholic Church then just like there has been in our own time and various other times. Corruption has waxed and waned. No doubt there will always be some corruption somewhere or many-wheres in the Church.

The Devil prowls like a around hungry lion seeking to devour

Catholic people are not immune to the wiles of Our Enemy. What is pure and indefectible is the doctrine of the Catholic Church, not her members or even her popes. But the Devil cannot corrupt the Teaching, The Doctrine, of the Catholic Church. That is under the divine protection of Our Lord.

Luther’s objections were very worthwhile. One of his errors was to leave the Church and start his own instead of trusting God. The Jews are known for their repeated apostasy and corruption in the OT. But, individual Jewish Prophets never left and started their own “Chosen People” when they got fed up with the sinfulness of their brothers.

God, and God alone, is the Chooser of the Jews and the Founder of His Church. The Catholic Church was ushered in with all manner of supernatural events. By what authority, did any of the human founders of any of the Protestant churches, start a new Church? What miracles or supernatural events attested to this God given authority?

Q. At this time the Catholic Church, led by the Pope, of course, was extracting money from members by selling Indulgences

A. This was an abuse and a twisting of Catholic Doctrine for the purpose of fundraising to build St. Peter’s in Rome. Indulgences CANNOT be bought and sold. The Pope did not sanction the abuse. Remember, communication was very slow back then so errant behavior was difficult to keep track of and correct.

Q. These indulgences purported to perform functions that only God can do, such as the forgiving of sins, and all for a price.

A. You are misunderstanding what was going on because of the one-dimensional influence of Protestant theology. Yes, only God can forgive sins. But they all KNEW that. What they were hoping to do was to “atone for the TEMPORAL punishment of sin”. And giving alms is a legitimate way to do this.

But according to two-dimensional Catholic doctrine only God decides how much of the temporal punishment of sin has been satisfied by the giving of alms, devotions, prayers, etc. So, the people were not trying to buy forgiveness of sin but buy their way out of Purgatory. Which can’t be done. So the saying/teaching “When the coin in the coffer rings a soul from Purgatory springs” is pure presumption and heresy.You might find this article on Tetzel interesting. Tetzel→ At least read the last 1/3 of the article.

Please see my post and some of the other posts on Purgatory, In order to better understand the two-dimensions of sin according to Catholic theology.

Q. Add to this the atrocities historically committed by the Pope and his hierarchy including sexual immorality, murder, and the Inquisition. Is there any wonder that Martin Luther could no longer participate in an organization of believers that permitted these things?

A. You have been misled to think that these things were approved or even permitted. The Inquisition was not the overblown disaster that many have come to think it was. But any atrocities were certainly not permitted/approved/taught by the Catholic Church. The Church/State relationship was very different in the middle ages from what we have today and it is not correct to judge a different culture based on our own culture. To be brief, in those days the State considered any person guilty of religious heresy equal to being a traitor to the state. The state gave the church the job of examining accused heretics to ascertain guilt and if guilty her ministers implored them to recant. But the church did not execute anyone; that was done by the state. The Church tried to save lives.

And at times people were accused of heresy in order to get rid of them and seize their land. The view many have of the Inquisition is simplistic when the whole situation was much more complex. I am not saying that there were not Catholic people guilty of immorality. I am saying that the Catholic Church did not teach them to be immoral or commit atrocities.

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7 Responses to Conversation: Indulgences

  1. […] Go here to read the rest: Conversation: Indulgences […]

  2. Constantine says:

    You wrote:

    Selling indulgences was clearly not the official teaching of the Catholic Church because, Saxony and Spain forbade this method of fundraising in their territories.

    Response:

    The fact that Spain and Saxony could disregard Rome’s teaching and not be excommunicated is direct evidence that the pope never had a “primacy of jurisdiction” which Catholics must now believe under pain of anathema.

    The further fact that Tetzel was sent to Germany by the pope is indication that selling indulgences was “official teaching”, unless, of course, the pope is not eligible to be the official teacher anymore.

    Peace.

  3. Constantine says:

    You wrote:
    It was an abuse of the doctrine of indulgences in Germany, not an all-inclusive Church teaching.

    Response:
    And who, exactly, abused it. Bingo – it was the pope!

    Peace.

  4. Constantine says:

    You wrote:

    This was an abuse (the selling of indulgences) and a twisting of Catholic Doctrine for the purpose of fundraising to build St. Peter’s in Rome. Indulgences CANNOT be bought and sold. The Pope did not sanction the abuse. Remember, communication was very slow back then so errant behavior was difficult to keep track of and correct.

    Response:

    Many popes did sanction the abuse. Do you think Tetzel was an autonomous agent? And when Tetzel was commissioned in Rome, my dear, there was no delay in communication. The pope told him what to do and he did it. If the popes had not told Tetzel to do what he did, why did he send the money to Rome? He would have kept the money save for the fact he was under papal sanction.
    And besides, the popes needed this money for much more than church building. They needed it for parties and carnivals, their illegitimate children, their mistresses and even pet elephants! Isn’t that fun?

  5. Constantine says:

    You wrote:

    But any atrocities were certainly not permitted/approved/taught by the Catholic Church. The Church/State relationship was very different in the middle ages from what we have today and it is not correct to judge a different culture based on our own culture.

    Response:

    If your conclusion is true, then it would be truer still in the Papal States where the pope was both ecclesiastical and secular ruler. But history shows that the most egregious human and civil rights abuses took place in precisely that state. If the popes had been so pure and the Roman church so correct, how do explain the torture, imprisonment and murder of Jews that was official Roman policy for nearly 800 years? How do you explain the Edgardo Mortara incident?

    Your naivete is truly amazing.

    Peace.

  6. Constantine says:

    You wrote:

    The view many have of the Inquisition is simplistic when the whole situation was much more complex. I am not saying that there were not Catholic people guilty of immorality. I am saying that the Catholic Church did not teach them to be immoral or commit atrocities.

    Response:

    I am saying that the Catholic Church DID teach them (i.e. Inquisitors) to be immoral and to commit atrocities. Why else did the Inquisition commit so many of them? Why did Rome never stop it?

    When Pope Paul IV brought the Inquisition to the Papal States did he intend to teach them to sing the Te Deum? No. He brought the Inquisition to Rome because he LIKED what he was of it in Spain. And in Spain, the Inquisition was a method of societal terror unequaled until the KGB of a later era. Did Paul do that over the objections of the Magisterium? Of course not. No one in the Roman Church’s hierarchy ever complained about this, or tried to stop it or any of a myriad of other abuses, until it was forced to by outside, secular forces.

    Please don’t insult our intelligence by trying to deny the plain and obvious fact that the Church of Rome, its popes, cardinals, bishops and priests officially sanctioned, promoted, taught and benefited from such egregious sins as the selling of indulgences. “Facts are stubborn things” and the facts make that case – irrevocably.

    Peace.

  7. Nan says:

    Constantine, can you cite authoritative historical sources for any of your allegations?

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