Q. The quote I am posting below proves that the R.C. church teaches equality between scripture and the catechism.
The Documents of Vatican II
Hence there exist a close connection and communication between Sacred tradition and sacred Scripture. For
both of them, flowing from the same divine wellspring, in a certain way merge into a Unity and tend toward the
same end. For sacred Scripture is theWord of God inasmuch as it is consigned to writing under the inspiration
of the divine Spirit. To the successors of the apostles, sacred tradition hands on in its full purity God’s word,
which was Entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit . . . Consequently, it is not from
sacred Scripture alone That the Church draws her certainty about everything which has Been revealed.
Therefore both sacred tradition and sacred Scripture are to be accepted and venerated with the same sense of
Devotion and reverence. Sacred tradition and sacred Scripture form one sacred deposit of the word of God,
which is committed to the church (p.117).
The Question and Answer Catholic Catechism
59. Where do we find the truths revealed by God?
We find the truths revealed by God in Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition.60. How does Sacred Scripture compare with Sacred Tradition?
Both Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition are the inspired word of God, and both are forms of divine
revelation. Sacred Scripture is divinely inspired writing, whereas Sacred Tradition is the unwritten word of
inspired persons.89. Why is Sacred Tradition of equal authority with the Bible?
The Bible and Sacred Tradition are of equal authority because they are equally the word of God’ both derive
from the inspired vision of the ancient prophets, and especially from the infinite wisdom of God incarnate who
gave to the apostles what he came down on earth to teach, through them, to all of mankind.
A. I do not deny that they are of equal authority. But, many imagine that because of the equality of Scripture and Tradition, Catholic doctrine could be almost anything. And that the Catholic Church therefore, ends up with all kinds of Doctrines diametrically opposed to Sacred Scripture. But that is NOT how it works. The beliefs of the the Church existed FIRST. Scripture and the Teaching of the Apostles or Sacred Tradition are cited to support these doctrines.
Jesus—>Christian Faith—> Authentic Apostolic Teaching—>Oral and Written =Tradition and Scripture
And I can assure you NOTHING that the Church believes contradicts one thing in Sacred Scripture.
It is the BELIEFS of Protestants and their INTERPRETATION of scripture that contradicts Catholic Doctrine.
The reason for this is that both Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition were DERIVED out of the FAITH and the CHURCH founded by Jesus Christ. So, the Bible does not contradict Catholic Doctrine and Catholic Doctrine does not contradict the Bible.
The only thing that contradicts Catholic Doctrine are Protestant Doctrines derived from various interpretations of Sacred Scripture 1500-2000 years after they were written.
Q. How do you relate John 21:25 to oral teachings?
A. John 21:25
Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.
The reason for citing this verse is to point out that Jesus did and said many, many things that did not get written down in John’s Gospel or even the rest of the NT. For instance, all that Jesus explained to the disciples on the road to Emmaus. Now Protestants will just say “We don’t need anything more than what was canonized.” But Catholics would disagree saying that the fullness of the Faith did not get written into the Canon of Scripture. Nothing in scripture says Scripture is enough. Therefore, this passage in John shows that there is nothing wrong with accepting unwritten teachings of the apostles which we call TRADITION. Traditions of men is something completely different. And St. Paul even exhorts the Thessalonians to hold firmly to what he taught them, both written and ORAL.
So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.
Q. What about 2 Thess. 2:15? Remember scripture backs scripture.
A. I agree.
Q. Oral traditions get lost over time, but the written word of God has withstood time and persecution.
A. I would have to say the same thing about the Catholic Faith. Where in scripture does it teach that oral traditions get lost over time? I would contend that the Oral teachings of the Church were eventually written down and God has by HIS power protected and preserved the TRUTH within the One,Holy,Catholic, and Apostolic Church.
Q. How can you possibly follow “oral” traditions handed down over 2000 years ago?
A. I believe that God protected the purity of the Faith handed on by word of mouth just as St. Paul taught in Scripture. You believe in the inspiration of the Old Testament don’t you? Moses wrote down the first five books of the OT. The events he recorded were thousands of years before his time. We both believe that God safeguarded the truth to Moses several thousand years later. While on the other hand Sacred Tradition began to be written down within one hundred years after Christ’s resurrection. We reject any and all writings, no matter how old they are if they do not align with scripture and the Faith as always believed and taught. I am sure you believe God could have done this. The question you must decide is, “Did He?”
Faith consists in the hope that love will reach its fulfillment. – Saint Robert Joachim John Bronislaw
When you write, “Nothing in scripture says Scripture is enough”, you display an amazing ignorance.
How about these?
Apostle Paul: “Do not go beyond what is written.” (1 Cor. 4:6). Could that be any clearer?
Apostle Peter: “this is now my second letter to you. I have WRITTEN both of them as reminders to stimulate you to wholesome thinking. 2I want you to recall the words spoken in the past by the holy prophets and the command given by our Lord and Savior through your apostles. (2 Peter 3:1-2) It is Peter’s WRITING that he intends to carry forward the message of the prophets and of Jesus.
Moses: “keep his commands and decrees that are WRITTEN in this Book of the Law” (Deut. 30:10) God commands the Israelites to follow the WRITTEN Law.
God tells the Israelites through Joshua, “obey all that is WRITTEN in the Book of the Law of Moses, without turning aside to the right or to the left.” (Joshua 23). Do NOT turn away from what is WRITTEN.
Proverbs 30:6, “Do not add to his words, or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar.”
Jesus: “I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.” Matthew 5:18. Jesus affirms ALL THE OLD TESTAMENT writings that say DO NOT GO BEYOND WHAT IS WRITTEN.
Now to be sure, the apostles and believers to this day do not merely recite Scripture verbatim, but everything they do proclaim must be based on what is WRITTEN. In other words, there is no legitimate, independent “tradition” which has any authority over the believer. To make that claim, is to make Jesus a liar.
Constantine,
Of course we accept the authority and the infallibility of Scripture. Please read the context of I Cor 4:6. It is talking about judging one another. The context is NOT about the limits of Religious Truth as the quote out of context seems to imply. Besides Paul exhorts the believers in:
2 Thessalonians 2:15 So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.
1 Timothy 3:15 if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.
Either St. Paul is contradicting himself or you are misinterpreting your verse in the context of all of his writings. So, sorry we reject your interpretation of Scripture b/c it does not align with the teachings of Christianity down through the history of the Church. Your interpretations are only 500 years old.
“And I can assure you NOTHING that the Church believes contradicts one thing in Sacred Scripture.”
You decide:
SCRIPTURE
“And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven.” Matthew 23:9
CATHOLIC CHURCH
400,000 “fathers” and one “holy father”, all to be addressed as “Father”.
SCRIPTURE
No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the LORD.
“For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.” Jeremiah 31
CATHOLIC CHURCH
The only way to have the “fullness of faith” is to be taught in the Catholic Church. Sins can only be forgiven by Catholic priests during Catholic sacraments.
SCRIPTURE
After this he (Jesus) went down to Capernaum with his mother and brothers and his disciples. John 2:12
CATHOLIC CHURCH
Mary is “ever virgin” and Jesus did not, therefore, have any siblings. (Unless they were all “virgin births” making them all Christs.)
SCRIPTURE
“All that the Father gives me will come to me, and I will not lose one.” John 6:37
CATHOLIC CHURCH
Whereas the Biblical process of salvation begins with God, the process of salvation for Catholics begins with man and must be within the Catholic Church. Even those in the Catholic Church may lose their salvation due to mortal sin.
SCRIPTURE
“”No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. “
CATHOLIC CHURCH
No one can come to God unless he is in full communion with the Catholic Church.
SCRIPTURE
“For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God” Ephesians 2:8
CATHOLIC CHURCH
Faith is an act of man. (CCC 154)
SCRIPTURE
“It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: 29You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from BLOOD, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things. Farewell.” Acts 15:28-29
CATHOLIC CHURCH
Your are to drink Christ’s actual blood as the “source and summit of the Christian life.” (CCC 1324).
Many more could be mentioned.
Pam,
“And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven.” Matthew 23:9
CATHOLIC CHURCH
400,000 “fathers” and one “holy father”, all to be addressed as “Father”.
This is one of the examples of what some want to take literally and then get upset when the Eucharist is taken literally as this is my body and blood,right?
So, literally it is being said…Do not call anyone Father, but when people believe Jesus is talking about this is my body this is my blood, the comment back is “Oh, no, he meant that figuratively”.
Blessings,Ally
Constantine,
SCRIPTURE
No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the LORD.
“For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.” Jeremiah 31
So there is really no point in any organized religion?No bible study, no christian education?
Constantine:”Many more could be mentioned.”
Yes, many could be taken out of context and manipulated as you see fit.
It’s been done before and will be done again.
BFHU: “And I can assure you NOTHING that the Church believes contradicts one thing in Sacred Scripture.” However, the teachings of the Catholic Church DO CONTRADICT Protestant interpretation of Scripture, which I will show is very shallow because their interpretations often do not align with other scriptures.
Constantine: Let’s compare Scripture to what the Catholic Church teaches.
SCRIPTURE
“And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven.” Matthew 23:9
CATHOLIC CHURCH
400,000 “fathers” and one “holy father”, all to be addressed as “Father”.
BFHU: The Protestant use of the above passage in Matthew is taken out of the context of the whole NT. But first let us look at the context of just this verse in only the Chapter 23 of Matthew to reveal a double standard of interpretation;
SCRIPTURE
From this we see that if we were to take these words literally no Christian should ever call anyone ON EARTH Rabbi, Father, or teacher. Now of course Rabbi is not used at all among Christians but not because of this verse in Matthew but because it is reserved for use of Jewish teachers. However, no one in all of Christendom seems to have any problem with calling a teacher a teacher or their dad Father. Why is this OK but calling a Catholic priest “father” is NOT OK?
Jesus is emphasizing in context that all legitimate authority and truth reside in God alone. And we must not let ourselves replace the authority of God with mere human authority. He could not possibly be prohibiting the use of the words father and teacher, as we shall see.
Jesus Himself refered to FATHER Abraham
Also, in his speech to the Sanhedrin, Stephen addresses the Jewish religious leaders as fathers.
St.Paul felt a fatherly affection for those he brought to life through the Gospel of Jesus Christ. And he had no problem with appropriating this title to himself.
Constantine:
Scripture: No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the LORD.
“For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.” Jeremiah 31
CATHOLIC CHURCH
The only way to have the “fullness of faith” is to be taught in the Catholic Church. Sins can only be forgiven by Catholic priests during Catholic sacraments.
BFHU: Then why did Jesus bother to teach???
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Constantine:
SCRIPTURE
After this he (Jesus) went down to Capernaum with his mother and brothers and his disciples. John 2:12
CATHOLIC CHURCH
Mary is “ever virgin” and Jesus did not, therefore, have any siblings. (Unless they were all “virgin births” making them all Christs.)
BFHU: Again these verses are taken out of the context of the New Testament and the culture in which they were spoken. Please see the Catholic explanation of who the “brothers and sisters” of Jesus were and also how St Paul and others used the exact same Greek word to address their epistles to Brothers. They were NOT St. Paul’s siblings. Please see my post WHO WERE THE BROTHERS AND SISTERS OF JESUS?
Constantine:
SCRIPTURE
“All that the Father gives me will come to me, and I will not lose one.” John 6:37
CATHOLIC CHURCH
Whereas the Biblical process of salvation begins with God, the process of salvation for Catholics begins with man and must be within the Catholic Church. Even those in the Catholic Church may lose their salvation due to mortal sin.
BFHU: This is either an outright lie or you have been lied to. Salvation in the Catholic Church is ONLY by the Grace of God. He has provided the means for our salvation…God/Man Jesus. But we must access that grace by our free will choice. The Catholic Church was founded by Jesus as a beacon on the path of salavation.
It is a heresy to say that only Catholics can be saved. Please see my post and common misunderstandings of There is No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church
Yes salvation can be lost due to mortal sin. Please see my post Can We Lose Our Salvation?
Constantine:
SCRIPTURE
“For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God” Ephesians 2:8
CATHOLIC CHURCH
Faith is an act of man. (CCC 154)
BFHU: Once again, this is standard Protestant proof texting to make a point without considering how this verse is in harmony with other verses in scripture. All scriptures must be in harmony. So when we find verses that seem to contradict each other it is our understanding that fabricates the contradiction. Our understanding must be expanded in order to assimilate all of scripture in such a way that contradiction is dissolved. The Ephesian passage is emphasizing a point about GRACE. But as we see in James this was taken to an extreme. It is not Grace OR Works or act of man but it is BOTH GRACE and Works together.
Constantine:
SCRIPTURE
“It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: 29You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from BLOOD, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things. Farewell.” Acts 15:28-29
CATHOLIC CHURCH
Your are to drink Christ’s actual blood as the “source and summit of the Christian life.” (CCC 1324).
BFHU: Happy addressed this above but let’s take a look at
The Catholic Church simply takes Jesus literally. Most of the Protestants do not. Once again we see an example of verses taken out of context and Protestants do not know how to reconcile these verses convincingly.