Islam Overtakes Catholicism as the World’s Largest Religion?

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“Islam Overtakes Catholicism as the World’s Largest Religion”has been a headline that has hit the blogosphere hard and taken off running… But there are some points to ponder when taking in this story…

Islam is not a singular cohsesive institution… There are divisions. If we are going to compare all adherents to forms of Islam to another group, wouldn’t it be all adherents to forms of Christianity? If we are going to compare the largest sub-groups… Well Holy Mother Church still is the largest single religious body the world has ever known. And we are still growing.

Something to really consider though – Muslims have more children.

This isn’t about who is winning the race in the door-to-door Mormon style door knocking missionary work. The numbers aren’t a function of who is converting the non-believers quicker. It is about who is “making their own”.

On that score one may think I am suggesting Catholics start hunkering down and having as many babies as possible from ages 16-45… That isn’t quite the case. (Though I would applaud anyone who went for the family of 15!)

I believe the decline represents who the West is missing and has forgotten – the generations that were silently terminated.

Add up all the abortions – both surgical and chemical that take place annually – and have now taken place for decades – among a post-Christian cultures that treat children and families as burdens rather than the wealth families truly are, and we begin to see what has happened and is happening.

On another forum there is a poster who keeps asking “why is Islam more attractive than Catholicism?” which to me was like asking my grandmother – one of 13 Quebecois kids growing up on a farm“Why was Catholicism more attractive to all 13 of the LaVoy children?” The answer: Because Henri and Yvonne LaVoy made it the exclusive attraction!

As long as the bastions of Christianity in general and Catholicism in particular (Europe) continues to depopulate, any group or movement that continues to replace and expand population will grow larger.

Having said that, keep an eye on sub-Saharan Africa and on SE Asia. The fertility rates are higher there (they haven’t learned to fear large families as representing a “drain on their wealth” yet) and Christianity is outpacing Islam in conversions in many of these mission fields.

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96 Responses to Islam Overtakes Catholicism as the World’s Largest Religion?

  1. melcartera says:

    Simplesinner,

    You have behaved very rudely at my site. First you quote a portion of my post with a phrase crossed out, and then you post successive comments with rude and challenging tones.

    My non-Christian guests have behaved much better than you. Please be informed that I will not allow any more rude comments from you, just as I have not allowed any rude comments from previous visitors.

    There are non-Christians who visit my site, and it will be very bad for our faith if they see a visitor like you picking fights just to push your particular agenda, in your case anti-birth control.

    I wish you success in your campaign, but please don’t use other people’s sites for your own advocacies. And don’t challenge people and pick fights.

    God bless!

    melcartera

  2. Melcartera I don’t think you understand the subtlety of using the “crossed out” feature. Maybe you have not been blogging that long – it is neither rude nor provacative – it is a way of underscoring a point.

    I wasn’t misquoting you – when people use that feature they are showing how their thoughts differ. I didn’t attribute it to you, people who read a lot of blogs will realize that.

    It is regrettable you happened to think that rude. Comboxes being what there are, I thought it was for a more open exchange.

    I hope you get a chance to read some of those links… And I will keep you in my prayers.

    I wish you well with your blog, but please don’t tell other folks what to do and don’t presume that people who are challenging you are picking fights. Sometimes we are just simply pointing out the faulty logic that does not follow.

    Simple

  3. Fr. J. says:

    If talking about a teaching of the Church to you is a rude campaign, then you need to get out of the blogging business altogether.

  4. melcartera says:

    Now you’re being r–e, Fr. J, coming in with a comment that’s out of context. My complaint about the rudeness was not about the talking about any teachings. My complaint was about the manner that Simple made his comments in my blog.

    I took his approach and tone as rude. He has emailed me with his explanation and I have in turn apologized to him.

    If you will read the comments in my blog, from atheists and agnostics in their reactions to my posts on the reliability of the NT, and my responses to them, they have been very civil discussions.

    There have been no suggestions to “get out of the blogging business altogether”, which I am very surprised and saddened to receive from a man of the cloth. What a loving and mature response from an ordained follower of Christ.

  5. Fr. J. says:

    I did read the conversation and I just didnt see anything rude there. What is out of context is not my comments here in reaction to you, but your initiating a conversation here about a conversation somewhere else, which should have just stayed there.

    All SS did was bring up the important teaching of Humanae Vitae and he was called rude for it. The reference to a campaign was overly dramatic. It is important to have a thick skin to be in blogging, and that was my point. I am glad you all have made up. That is good.

  6. melcartera says:

    “…he was called rude for it.”

    No, sir, he was not called rude for bringing up the subject matter at all, but for the manner in which it was brought up. The manner was perceived to be overly aggressive and critical.

    But Simple has explained that there was probably a cultural difference working behind the misunderstanding. I agree with his observation, and I apologize for my hostile response. What I, as an Asian, took to be aggressive was actually not meant by Simple to be taken that way.

    I should have remembered: “Love believes all things”. I should have believed that Simple meant well, rather than believe that he was being overly aggressive. Should have given him that benefit, especially since he’s also a fellow believer (who comes from a different culture).

    Lesson learned.

  7. Fr. J. says:

    Well, I am glad that you have this all cleared up. Nevertheless, this conversation belonged with the original post on your site, not here. Readers of this post will not understand what this conversation is about.

    God Bless.

  8. […] Muslims don’t agree. I wonder how well Planned Parenthood would be received in Afganistan?  We could always send some […]

  9. Joel says:

    Hopefully we will open a mission field in Saudi Arabia soon! I do understand it is doubtfull, but it couldn’t be a bad idea to hope and pray for it.

  10. Rebecca says:

    I’m impressed! I didn’t know that there were more Muslims than Christians now… But you’re all right, it’s a very closed religion. Hard to convert there.
    Islam is attractive, but I don’t think it will go on.

  11. Dr. Eric says:

    Point of fact… there are not more Muslims than Christians. Christians still outnumber Muslims by 2:1.

    If we are going to count accurately, since Christianity is made up of Catholics, Orthodox, and Protestants, and Islam is made up of Sunni, Shia, and smaller groups; the Sunni make up about 85% of Muslims and the Shia make up about 15%.

    I’m going by the information from http://www.adherents.com.

    So, the Catholic Church with 1 billion plus members is still larger than the grouping of Sunni Muslims.

  12. Cassandra says:

    Yea…And when was the last time those 1 million people actually practiced their faith?
    Not the faith u see today thats not even christanity.. It does not allow sex outside of marriage, nor does it allow for when to dresst the way they do. when was the last tme u saw a christian aside from a nun wearing the dresscode required by the christian faith ? People wear crosess and think that makes them a good christian they make their own gode of ethetics etc. In your bibles, it says that a women without coverng her hair should have her hair shaved…hmm… Also the differences between the sects of islam are nothing like the differences between he sects of christanity….you guys dont even have a n original copyo f your holy book, theres like what 400 versions? Muslims regardless of sunni or shia, read one quran, follow 5 pillars of islam the rules are the same, it is a political disagreenace mostly between the leadership after the death the prophet ( peace be upin him) So its really not the same at all. But anyways..

    And as for the converting you are def wrong about that therei s no way to hide the fact that it is the fastest growing religiona nd the number of converts is one f the reasons, in the usa eveyr year between 20 000 and 40 000 americans convert 75% of them being women. I am a convert to islam myself..
    I wont be part of an argument but its sad that people can post ingorant things and mislead others whose intentions may be pure..Anyways.

    salam alykum
    ( May the peace and blessings of Allah ( of he one and only god, that is what allah means, the creator of the worlds) be upon you all)

  13. Yea…And when was the last time those 1 million people actually practiced their faith?

    Go to Mass.

    Not the faith u see today thats not even christanity..

    What does that even mean?

    It does not allow sex outside of marriage, nor does it allow for when to dresst the way they do.

    Neither does the Catholic Church.

    when was the last tme u saw a christian aside from a nun wearing the dresscode required by the christian faith ?

    What dress code is that? Can you elaborate where the agreed-upon dress code is?

    People wear crosess and think that makes them a good christian they make their own gode of ethetics etc. In your bibles, it says that a women without coverng her hair should have her hair shaved…hmm…

    The comment about crosses… Honestly, I had dormates in college who had a prayer-rug in ther corner and some verses in Arabic here and there on the wall. We drank together often. Apples to apples. Can you cite the biblical citation you are offering and back it up the idea that it applies to the New Covenant?

    Also the differences between the sects of islam are nothing like the differences between he sects of christanity….you guys dont even have a n original copyo f your holy book, theres like what 400 versions?

    You mention you are a convert, I take it you are not a former Christian with some background in Scripture translation. How many translations are their of the Koran? (Or “interpretations” if you like?)

    Muslims regardless of sunni or shia, read one quran, follow 5 pillars of islam the rules are the same, it is a political disagreenace mostly between the leadership after the death the prophet ( peace be upin him) So its really not the same at all. But anyways..

    Not the same as which?

    And as for the converting you are def wrong about that therei s no way to hide the fact that it is the fastest growing religiona nd the number of converts is one f the reasons, in the usa eveyr year between 20 000 and 40 000 americans convert 75% of them being women. I am a convert to islam myself..

    20-40K a year in a nation of 300M+ makes it the fastest growing? A lot of them being women suggests a lot of marriage conversion also… I suppose if you start out with ONE adherent and grow by 40K in a year you could count it to be the fastest growing….

    I wont be part of an argument but its sad that people can post ingorant things and mislead others whose intentions may be pure..Anyways.

    You don’t wish to be part of an argument, just make objectionable and somewhat pedantic claims before heading off to the next combox?

    salam alykum
    ( May the peace and blessings of Allah ( of he one and only god, that is what allah means, the creator of the worlds) be upon you all)

    يا رب يسوع المسيح ابن اللّه الحيّ إرحمني أنا الخاطئ

  14. […] See also: Islam overtakes Catholicism as the worlds largest religion? […]

  15. Zohaib Ul_Hassan says:

    Asalam-o-Alaikum.
    I am proud to be a Muslim.
    As a Musalman I respect Cristianity bcz christs also beleive on one alone God.
    I also want to say:that Islam is a completly peaceful religion instead of ur beleiv’Terrorism’.
    God bless u
    Allah Hafiz

  16. I wish it were the case that we didn’t need to be reassured of the “peacefulness of the religion of Islam” so often.

  17. Tito Edwards says:

    It’s peaceful as long as were are dhimmi’s, ie, Christians subject under Islamic (Sharia) Law.

    Zohaib is sincere, you just have to peel away the onion to get to the core of the issue.

  18. I wish these Muslims knew how peaceful the religion of Submission is.

    Again, it is peaceful when the dhimmi know their place.

    More on this story. “Mufti asks PM to reassure Muslims of dignity,” from The Hindu, September 26:

    Srinagar (PTI): People’s Democratic Party (PDP) patron Mufti Mohammad Sayeed on Friday appealed to Prime Minister Manmohan Singh to take lead in reaching out to the Muslims of the country in order to reassure them of dignity and fair application of legal and constitutional safeguards.

    “The prime minister must take a lead in reaching out to Muslim masses in order to reassure them of dignity and fair application of legal and constitutional safeguards. And, all right-thinking, secular and democratic forces must join this campaign without reservations,” Sayeed said in a statement here.

    Commenting on the serial bomb blasts in parts of the country, Jamia Nagar encounter and Nanavati Commission report, Sayeed said the recent events and their aftermath call for immediate intervention to avert a collision of communities in the country.

    “We can’t fill the jails of the country with young and educated Muslims in the hope of freeing the country of terror,” the former Jammu and Kashmir chief minister said.

    Easy solution: “young and educated Muslims” should renounce terror and thereby avoid being imprisoned.

    Sayeed said the chain of investigations have unfortunately resulted in casting a shadow on the entire Muslim community of the country. Nobody needs to point out the dangers and pitfalls in allowing this impression to grow, he observed…

    Yes, things like 1,000 Muslims surrounding a train full of trapped Hindus, hollering “Set the train on fire and kill the Hindus,” while a nearby mosque goads them on, tend to cast “a shadow on the entire Muslim community of the country.”

  19. rizwan says:

    Salam,

    Brothers and sisters,
    I can see alot of non muslims making many remarks and comments about Islam which are totally untrue! Please all I say is before saying soemthing check up on it from reliable source (the Holy Quran for Islam). I mean how many of the people on this blog have read the Quran with a clear un biased mind before making all these allegations against it, e.g. muslims being source of terror etc..

    We are told by the Creator of the Universe in the Quran…’Let there be no compulsion in religion, truth stands clear from falsehood’. No muslim will ever try to force his faith down the throat of any one after recieving these clear guidelines form the Creator, faith stems from the heart. Please set aside all your biased views and opinions and with a clear mind just read the Quran. You will not be able to avoid agreeing with every point.

    God speaks in the Quran about the people of the book (Jews and Christians), the sincere people who are always searching for the truth and are not arrogant. The Quran says …’ when the people of the book hear the verses of this Quran, you will see tears rolling down there cheeks as they recognise the words of their Lord’..

    Peace be on you all

    • anonymous says:

      Ma’Salaam,

      Reading the above article and its posts began to frustrate me. Until I came upon yours Rizan. To find truth amongst so many lies reminds me why I converted from Christianity to Islam. MarshAllah, may Allah bless you for your sincere Dawa

  20. I can see alot of non muslims making many remarks and comments about Islam which are totally untrue!

    What are these untruths? Point them out and debunk them case by case please.

  21. rizwan says:

    Ok asimplesinner,

    You ask us to rebuke these unture staements made be non muslims against Islam. I would like to rebuke a claim made earlier on the blog concerning a non muslim saying that the Quran like the bible has many versions through out the world, and he goes on to name a few like Yusuf Ali etc.. The learned Christians try to confuse the masses of people by saying that a translation and version are one of the same thing hence their is only one bible and the difference lay in translations BUT this is far from the truth.

    A translation is basically a choice of words made by a translator ina attempt to accurately put across the meaning of a word. Hence,a translation of any divine scripture is not the word of God, it is the works of man presenting the meaning of the words of God. The Quran like the bible is translated into many languages in the world and no muslim will ever tell you that the translation is the Word of God, the Arabic text in which the Quran was revealed 1450 years ago is the word of God which is still with us up to this day. The arabic text is identical in every quran you can get your hands on, this fact has been scientifically established (by comparing present copies with the orginal kept safe in a museum in Istanbul), not a difference of a dot was found, praise be to God.

    When we speak of VERSION, this is what you find when the Bible is studied, for example, the ROMAN CATholic bible contains 73 books whereas the protestant bible contains 66 books. The protestants have thrown out 7 books from the bible calling them DOUBTFUL.

    THIS IS VERSION, chucks of chucks of words, paragraphs and books taken out or put in. The bible as a whole was formed after the council of Nicea, it took approx 350 years after christ for the learned christians to decid what books should be included into the bible, the books which made up the new testament.

    Even to this day, the bible is been revised again and again with words being taken out after discovering that they are not to be found in the most ancient manuscripts. By the way, out of the 24000 copies of manuscripts the chrsitiona boost of having, NO 2 are identical so how do you know which is correct??

    The Quran has been beautifully perserved by the Creator himself, int he quran God makes a promise saying..’it is we you have revealed the scripture and it is for us to guard it from corruption’…

    You all owe it to yourselves to pick thispowerful scripture and remove from your minds all prejudices and read it with an open and clear mind!

    Please forgive me if i have offended or hurt any christian brother or sister feeling. I only am speaking of facts here.

  22. Dalry says:

    “Quran was revealed” and “is the word of God”. There is not eveidence for it, is there ?

  23. Dr. Eric says:

    I’m sorry Rizwan, only a truncated “version” of the Bible contains 66 books.

    Would a Quran only containing 99 Suras be considered complete?

    I’m sure there are a small minority of scholars out there who want to get rid of certain parts of the Quran.

    And, by the way, St. Jerome had versions to study to create the Vulgate that are now lost to the ages. The Vulgate is still the official “Book” of the Catholic Church.

  24. rizwan says:

    Dalry,

    Most assuredly, the evidence is there in clear that the Holy Quran is the Final word of God to mankind. The evidence is there in the Holy Quran through out the verses where the Creator of the universe places various falsification tests in his book and he challenges us to take up these tests in order to proof that this book is not from the Almighty.

    An example of these falsification tests is a verse from the quran which reads as follows:..’Do not the unbelievers consider this Quran with care, had it been from anyone else other then Allah (God Almighty) you would of found within it many discrepancies’…..

    Glory be to God, he is the source of all knowledge then how can a book whose author is claimed to be the source of all knowledge contain any errors of any kind, you msut agree. So there is one of many challenges you will come across in the Glorious Quran, pull out just a single error from this book and you will win the day, your case will be proven.

    Such a simple statement and test yet since it was revealed over 1450 years ago, not a single error has been identified by even the most staunch enemies of Islam. They themselves have confessed that indeed this Quran is a miracle even though they did not take heed to the message.

    Let alone errors, not even a single grammatical error has been found and this was a book which was revealed to the last prophet Muhammed, may peace be upon him who was totally unlearned (illiterate).

    You owe it to ourselves to read this powerful scripture from your Creator and then decid for yourselves where lies the truth! Let me finish with God words translated from the quran which read….’ no compulsion in religion, truth stands clear from falsehood’…

  25. rizwan says:

    Dr Eric,

    People against Islam have tried there very best to distort the Quran but glory be to God who states in the Quran that God has taken the responsibility to sfaeguard the Quran from corruption. It is a fact that the original Quran is still with us up to this day, so these few scholars you mention can think all they like, the orginal is still with us so proof is there that the quran with the arabic text you find today is identicle to the orginal. Plus you have millions of muslims scattered throught out the earth you have learned by heart the whole quran in the language it was revealed, arabic. SO if one day for example all the qurans in the world including the original book were thrown into the sea, we muslims could call a memorizer of the holy quran from UK & america, & Africa & Australia & China & India & Saudi Arabia, stand them all together and they will all start reciting from the first verse up to the last verse, and they wont disagree even over a letter, and BANG we muslims will have our Quran right back with us. This is also a living miracle of the Quran, the almighty has preserved his book in the hearts of his servants throughout the world.

    If the same was done for the bible, the christians would be very unfortunate because they would not firstly by able to agree amongest themselves what is the bible, there are 360 different versions of the bible, containing different books, different authors etc….

  26. Dalry says:

    RIZWAN, what you offer as an evidence is not evidence at all. You can’t use Quran as evidence that the Quran itself is the word of God. That kind of “evidence” couldn’t stand in any court. You have taken for true, i.e. that Quran was revealed, what you should have proved in the first place.

    Otherwise, anyone could, like Mohamad, proclaim what he believes to be a revelation to him to be the revelation indeed, have it put down in writing, with a statement in the text that it is a revelation, and answer my question as you have answered it.

    It makes no sense.

  27. Most assuredly, the evidence is there in clear that the Holy Quran is the Final word of God to mankind. The evidence is there in the Holy Quran through out the verses where the Creator of the universe places various falsification tests in his book and he challenges us to take up these tests in order to proof that this book is not from the Almighty.

    Wait, just to be clear, we know the Koran is of Divine origin because the Koran tells us it is?

  28. rizwan says:

    Dalry,
    What i have mentioned previously i assumed was ample evidence. The quran itself claims to be of divine origin which is enough for every muslim. However for the non muslims it seems not enough evidence. So the Creator himself has provided the the non believers with various falsification tests throughout his book, all have failed to prove this book is false, is that not enough evidence.

    If you require more evidence then i would like to turn your attention to thousands of verses you will find in the Quran speaking about scientific matters for example the creation of the universe and man, verses discussing astrology, geology, biology , physics, and many many more. Leading scientists in their particular fields have been studying verses from the quran dealing with their inparticular research area, and again no one has been able to point a single error in the quran concerning the many statements its makes about scientific facts which were unknown 1450 years ago.

    Scientists have been interviewed and asked to comment and account how this type of scientific infomation could of been known to a Arab man (claiming to be receiving revelation form the Almighty) living 1450 years ago whop could not read or write!
    Many of the scientists had no answer and some acknowledged that the Quran had to be of divine origin.
    Like i said before, not a single error has been found ina book speaking of thousands of verses relating to science, I ask you now to account for this. If (as the non muslims claim) the Holy Prophet wrote the Quran (which he couldnt because he was illitarate), where did he get all this informtion from concerning the make up of the universe and how it functions etc.. except from the one who created the universe.

  29. Dalry says:

    RIZWAN, all your attempted evidence is the story I am familiar with, and worthless. Your have only managed to confirm my initial thesis.

    I met once a devout and educated Moslem, who replied to the same question concisely and to the point; he said: “We believe it”. I respected it, because it was a humble and honest answer.

  30. rizwan says:

    Dalry, with all due respect, I appreciate your views but unfortunately it is you who have not backed up anything you have stated with facts and reason. It is not good enough to pack up every thing i have said with the words ‘worthless’, but you must back it up with a rational explanation. First now give me evidence to prove to me that the quran is not the word of God and that where did the Holy prophet get all his data and scientific information from???

    The life of the Holy prophet Muhammed is so well documented that it leaves no mystry about him, his disciples followed him everywhere, never left his side, watched his very action and recorded very word he spoke, no other man life has been so well preserved as has the last prophet. It came down to the creator revealing verses in the Quran instructing the disciples to give the last prophet some space and privacy!!! Such a man with such devoted followers, if there was any wrong sensed in his behaviour, conduct or movement , it would of being easily spotted and made public. bear in mind he also was constantly watched by the enemies of Islam, if they would of spotted him for example having secret meeting with people dictating him verses for the quran, it would not of gone unnoticed. Thsi is just an example i have put forth.

    Another bit of evidence is the fact that the holy prophet was illiterate!!! This has been testified by history and is testified by the creator himself in the quran. The Creator in his divine wisdom made the last prophet illiterate so that in the time to come people could not use this as a petty excuse in order to account for the miraculous quran.

    I believe i have given evidence upon evidence to back my faith and reasoning, You have not responded to a single statement of mine but instead just brushed it off.

  31. if there was any wrong sensed in his behaviour, conduct or movement , it would of being easily spotted and made public.

    From here you assume or presume that those who were surrounding him had a well-formed conscious (informed by what?) that could identify ethical lapses… Disciples don’t question gurus, and what would the baseline be for their measurement of the morailty or immorality of their guru? Christian thought? The pagan morality of Arabia?

    “The Koran is perfect because it is perfect” ultimately seems to be what you are arguing here….

  32. Dalry says:

    RIZWAN, you persist in providing what you believe to be evidence; as I said before, I am familiar with all that. This Forum is for a more serious debate, and what you say is available in popular pamphlets.

    But rather than arguing along these lines, I’ll suggest this: if you really believe that what you have provided thus far constitutes an evidence, rather than a mere reassurance to yourself of what you would believe even without it, I should appreciate if you would choose one or few proofs you consider best, and put it/them in a form of syllogism/s, the premises of which will be either self-evident, or acceptable to me, or they would be conclusions from preceding syllogisms etc.

    If you try, I will be glad to see whether your proofs are materially and logically tight. If you don’t, we have to cease dealing with this subject.

    Rizwan, I regret if you took my word “worthless” as an offence.

  33. Rizwan says:

    Dalry,

    May i put it this way then. I can see from your dialogue that you have some knowlegde about Islam. Please can you tell me what it is that you think is not rational in the quran??

  34. Dalry says:

    RIZWAN, I am not inclined to broaden the discussion beyond my original remarks on 17th October if you can’t offer an evidence along the lines I suggested last time, or unless you admit that there is none.

    Please, do not take the matter personally. Peace be with you.

  35. rizwan says:

    Dalry,

    Please do forgive me if any anything i have said has offended you but it seems like the evidence you are asking for is on the lines like people actually saw with there physical eyes stone tablets with verses inscribed on them descending from heaven to Prophet Muhammed, may peace be upon him. Is this the case?

    These sort of demands for evidence are not new, the holy quran mentions people at the time of the prophet made such requests for proof that the Quran was revealed from God. The almighty says in the quran that if he (God) would cause a book to descend from heaven to you (Prophet Muhammed) in the very sight of the disbelievers, they would even yet reject and say this is blatant sorcery!!! God tells us in the quran that to say to the unbelievers that is this Quran not enough for you as evidence that it is from the Creator!!

    I have given to you argument after argument proving that the Quran is the living miracle of Prohet Muhammed for the whole of Mankind up to the last day to see with there very own eyes which they can also read and investigate. The Quran claims to be revealed by God and backs it up with hundreds of claims, arguments and falsification tests which no other book claiming to be from God will ever have. Just give me one falsification test the bible provides for its readers to put it to the test?

    The evidence is there, the challenge has been laid out by our Creator, why are you hestitant to take up this challenge , which will provide you with the evidence that this is the truth.

    Just one last thing also, many times the revelation use to be revealed to prophet Muhammed, peace be upon him,(by arch angel Gabriel) when his disciples were present and they saw how in the season of winter (people wrapped in cloth due to extreme cold), the prophet would all of a sudden be sweating profusely while recieving revelation. One disciple said that once the holy prophet was resting and his leg was resting on the leg of his disciple when all of a sudden he began recieving revelation, at this point the prophet was sweating profusely and his leg which was resting on the disciple leg was weighing down so heavily that the disciple commented that he though his leg was going to break due to the force exerted at the time. Many disciples witnessed occasions when revelation was revealed to the prophet.

    Dalry, i request you to clear you mind, remove all kind of prejudice ideas and read the holy Quran, you owe it to your self as does every human walking this earth to read the words of his Creator that he has sent down in order to guide you in this life and the life to come.

    May Peace be on you.

  36. Dalry says:

    RIZWAN, no, you haven’t offended me: I am sure you have a good intention. However, there is no point of continuing this debate, as I said last time. Peace.

  37. Charlotte says:

    Cassandra – do you not know that 75% of converts to Islam in the US abandon it within 3 years? That has been confirmed by scholars. Muslims even say that despite hearing people are converting in droves they never see new faces in the Mosque so where are they? It is all lies and Muslim propaganda. The truth is people are leaving it in droves – you just need to look at sites like http://www.faithfreedom.org and http://www.islam-watch.org to see the evidence of that. As far as Muslims claiming the Quran is the word of God nothing could make me believe that in a million years.

  38. rizwan says:

    Hi Charlotte,

    Strange you should make comments like that, i have yet in my life to meet a person who has left Islam. The handful of people you are talking about you have left islam are those poor souls you have no knowledge. Quick example, have you ever heard or come acrross a muslim learned man(in religion) leaving Islam, never. Any one who studys islam will know it is the truth. However you will come across endless accounts of scholors in christianity and other religions leaving their religion and accepting islam. WHY??? because they see the falsehood apparent in the scriptures.

  39. The handful of people you are talking about you have left islam are those poor souls you have no knowledge.

    No one leaves, but those who do are just ignorant? Riiiiiiiiiiight.

    Quick example, have you ever heard or come acrross a muslim learned man(in religion) leaving Islam, never.

    Balderdash!

    Ever heard of Magdhi Christiano Allam? What about the droves that leave through the guidance of Abouna Zackaria? (If he were of no consequence or threat, because no one was leaving, why on earth would Islamists put a bounty on his head? If he were just some fool that fooled no one, why offer millions for his death?) What about the manifold souls that are reported at Persecution.com? If no one is leaving but some ignorants, why must the religion of submission” see to it that they – the ignorant converts who are the “no one” who are leaving, be killed?

    What about Queen consort of Egypt Nazli Sabri? or

    [edit] Converted to Christianity

    Albanian monarch, Skanderbeg converted from Christianity to Islam but reverted to Christianity later in life[1]Magdi Allam – Italy’s most famous Islamic affairs journalist.[2]
    Hussain Andaryas – Afghan Christian activist and tele-evangelist.[3]
    Josephine Bakhita – Roman Catholic saint from Darfur, Sudan.[4]
    Abo of Tiflis – Christian activist and the Patron Saint of the city of Tbilisi, Georgia.[5]
    Utameshgaray of Kazan – Khan of Kazan Khanate.[6]
    Yadegar Moxammat of Kazan – Last khan of Kazan Khanate. [6]
    Sayed Borhan khan – Khan of Qasim Khanate from 1627 to 1679. [6]
    Simeon Bekbulatovich – Khan of Qasim Khanate.[6]
    The Sibirsky family – The foremost of many Genghisid (Shaybanid) noble families formerly living in Russia.[7]
    The Shihab family – Prominent Lebanese noble family. The family originally belonged to Sunni Islam and converted to Christianity at the end of the 18th century.[8]
    Jacob Frank – 18th century Jewish religious leader who claimed to be the reincarnation of the self-proclaimed messiah Sabbatai Zevi, and also of King David. Frank publicly converted to Islam in 1757 and later to Christianity at Poland in 1759, but actually presented himself as the Messiah of a syncretic derivation of Shabbatai Zevi’s Messianism now referred to as Frankism.[9]
    Walid Shoebat – American author and former member of the PLO.[10]
    Hassan Dehqani-Tafti – Anglican Bishop of Iran from 1961 to 1990.[11]

    Italian journalist Magdi Allam converted to Roman Catholicism during the Vatican’s 2008 Easter vigil service presided over by Pope Benedict XVI[2]Nonie Darwish – Egyptian-American writer and public speaker.[12]
    Mehdi Dibaj – Iranian pastor and Christian activist.[13]
    Eldridge Cleaver – Author, prominent American civil rights leader, and key member of the Black Panther Party. He converted to Mormonism.[14] [15]
    Ghorban Tourani – Former Iranian Sunni Muslim who became a Christian minister. Following multiple murder threats , he was abducted and murdered on November 22, 2005.[16]
    Jean-Bédel Bokassa – Central African Republic Emperor (from Christianity to Islam back to Christianity).[17]
    Patrick Sookhdeo – British Anglican canon[18]
    Mark A. Gabriel- Egyptian Islamic scholar and writer[19]
    Akbar Gbaja-Biamila – American football player.[20][21]
    Alexander Kazembek – Russian Orientalist, historian and philologist of Azeri origin .[22]
    Kabeer Gbaja-Biamila – American football player.[20]
    Qadry Ismail – Former American football player.[23]
    Raghib Ismail – Former American football player.[24]
    Tunch Ilkin – Former American football player.[25]
    Lina Joy – Malaysian convert to Christianity. The desire to have her conversion recognized was the subject of a court case in Malaysia.[26]
    Carlos Menem – Former President of Argentina. Raised a Muslim but converted to Roman Catholicism, the official religion of Argentina, due to his political aspirations. [27]
    Marina Nemat – Canadian author of Iranian descent and former political prisoner of the Iranian government. Born into a Christian family, she converted to Islam in order to avoid execution but later reverted to Christianity.[28]
    George Weah – Liberian soccer player (from Christianity to Islam back to Christianity).[29]
    Nazli Sabri – Queen consort of Egypt. [30] [31]

    On St George’s Day, 2005 Bosnian film director Emir Kusturica left Islam and was baptised into the Serb Orthodox Church[32]Tuğçe Kazaz – Turkish model who was Miss Turkey in 2001.[33]
    Begum Samru – Powerful lady of north India, ruling a large area from Sardhana, Uttar Pradesh.[34]
    Abdul Rahman – Afghan convert to Christianity who escaped the death penalty because of foreign pressure.[35]
    Mathieu Kérékou- President of Benin (from Christianity to Islam back to Christianity).[36]
    Emily Ruete – (born Sayyida Salme) Princess of Zanzibar and Oman. [37] [38][39]
    Emir Kusturica – Bosnian filmmaker and actor.[32][40]
    Daniel Ali- Iraqi Kurdish Christian author, speaker and Islamic scholar.; evangelizes in Catholic, Protestant and Messianic Jewish circles. [41][42]
    Alexander Bekovich-Cherkassky – Russian officer of Circassian origin who led the first Russian military expedition into Central Asia.[43]
    Umar ibn Hafsun – Leader of anti-Ummayad dynasty forces in southern Iberia. Hafsun converted to Christianity with his sons and ruled over several mountain valleys for nearly forty years, having the castle Bobastro as his residence.[44]
    Aurelius and Natalia – Christian martyrs who were put to death during the reign of Abd ar-Rahman II, Caliph of Córdoba for apostasy.[45]
    Johannes Avetaranian – (born Muhammad Shukri Efendi), Christian missionary and Turkish descendent of Prophet Muhammad.[46]
    Paul Mulla – Turkish scholar and professor of Islamic Studies at the Pontifical Oriental Institute.[47]
    Hamid Pourmand – Former Iranian army colonel and lay leader of the Jama’at-e Rabbani, the Iranian branch of the Assemblies of God church in Iran. [48]
    Donald Fareed – Iranian Christian tele-evangelist and minister.[49]
    Daveed Gartenstein-Ross- Counter-terrorism expert and attorney (from Judaism to Islam to Christianity).[50][51]
    Ibrahim Abdullah – American former PLO terrorist. [52]
    Zachariah Anani – Former Sunni Muslim Lebanese militia fighter [53]
    Malika Oufkir – Author, activist and former prisoner of the Moroccan Royal Family. [54]

    Argentine president, Carlos Menem converted to Roman Catholicism due to his political aspirations [27]Ruffa Gutierrez – Filipina actress, model and former beauty queen (from Christianity to Islam back to Christianity)[55]
    Fadhma Aït Mansour – Mother of French writers Jean Amrouche and Taos Amrouche. [56]
    Imad ud-din Lahiz – Prolific Islamic writer, preacher and Quranic translator.[57]
    Dr. Nur Luke – Uyghur Bible translator. [58]
    Hakan Tastan and Turan Topal – Two Turkish Christian converts who went on trial in 2006, on charges of “allegedly insulting ‘Turkishness’ and inciting religious hatred against Islam”.[59]
    Mohammed Hegazy – First Egyptian Muslim convert to Christianity to seek official recognition of his conversion from the Egyptian Government.[60]
    Francis Bok – Sudanese-American activist, convert to Islam from Christianity; but later returned to his Christian faith.[61]
    Josef Mässrur – (born Ghäsim Khan) missionary to Chinese Turkestan with the Mission Union of Sweden.[62]
    Gulshan Esther – Pakistani convert from Islam to Christianity.[63]
    Ubayd-Allah ibn Jahsh – Brother of Zaynab bint Jahsh, the wife of Prophet Muhammad and one of the male Sahaba (companions of the Prophet).[64]
    Jabalah ibn al-Aiham – last ruler of the Ghassanid state in Syria and Jordan in the seventh century AD. After the Islamic conquest of Levant he converted to Islam in AD 638. He reverted to Christianity later on and lived in Anatolia until he died in AD 645.[65]
    Constantine the African – Baghdad-educated Muslim who died in 1087 as a Christian monk at Monte Cassino. [66][67]
    Estevanico – Berber originally from Morocco and one of the early explorers of the Southwestern United States.[68]
    Abraham of Bulgaria – Martyr and saint of the Russian Orthodox Church. [69]
    St. Adolphus – Christian martyr who was put to death along with his brother, John, by Abd ar-Rahman II, Caliph of Córdoba for apostasy. [70]
    Nasir Siddiki – Canadian evangelist, author, and business consultant.[71]
    Matthew Ashimolowo – Nigerian-born British pastor and evangelist.[72]
    Stefan Razvan – Gypsy prince who ruled Moldavia for six months in 1595.[73]
    Skanderbeg – Albanian monarch and military leader. Skanderbeg converted to Islam from Christianity but reverted back to Christianity later in life. [1]
    Amir Sjarifuddin – Indonesian socialist leader who later became the prime minister of Indonesia during its National Revolution. [74]
    Dr.Thomas Yayi Boni – President of Benin. [75]
    Al-Mu’eiyyad – Abbasid prince and third son of Abbasid caliph, Al-Mutawakkil. He was converted to Christianity along with his three confidants by St. Theodore of Edessa, accepting the name “John” upon baptism.[76][77]
    Aben Humeya – (born Fernando de Valor) Morisco Chief who was crowned the Emir of Andalusia by his followers and led the Morisco Revolt against Philip II of Spain.[78]
    Sheikh Ahmed Barzani – Head of Barzani Tribe in Iraqi Kurdistan and older brother of Mustafa Barzani, Kurdish nationalist leader. He announced his conversion to Christianity in 1931 during the anti-government uprising.[79]
    Rudolf Carl von Slatin – Anglo-Austrian soldier and administrator in the Sudan.[80]
    Shams Pahlavi – Iranian princess and the elder sister of Mohammad Reza Pahlavi, Shah of Iran.[81]
    Saye Zerbo – President of the republic of Upper Volta (now Burkina Faso) [82]

    Yea, no one leaves, but those who are the no ones who leave are just ignorant?

    Riiiiiiiiiight.

  40. Dalry says:

    Come on RIZWAN, you won’t tell me that you have read the Scripture, understood it and then found errors.

    Do you know at all what is the status of the Scripture in the Catholic Faith to which the overwhelming majority of Christians belong ?

  41. Michael says:

    ASIMPLESINNER
    Fascinating list. Where did you get it ? I had no clue about it.

  42. I got it from wikipedia… and those are just the known “notable and quotable” types. Every year thousands and thousands of Muslims in sub-Saharan Africa accept Christ and Baptism.

    The Evangelicals have a good deal to do with this. In this particular area of mission, I have a great deal of respect for them.

  43. rizwan says:

    Dalry,

    The manuscripts from which the bible has been complied which the christians boost of having (24000 in number i believe) are all copies. The orginals are lost. To compund your problem even further, out of all the 24000 copies you process, no 2 are identical. They differ so how do you know which is the word of God!!! Naturally these copies were penned down by the hands of men, and your christian scholors tell us that these men were not safe from commiting error when copies hence the differences apperent in the manuscripts BU|T yet you call these scriptures the infallible word of God!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    When you say scripture in the catholic faith, may i ask what about the bible the protestants hold on to, or the jehovah witnesses hold on to, are they not the word of God. If yes, then please correct me but the catholic bible (douay version) consists of 73 books where as the king james version (protestants along witht he bulk of christiandom use) has 66 books. 7 books thrown out of the roman catholic bible which proceeded the king james version. Please enlighten me which of these different VERSIONS of the bible is the word of GOD!!!

    Praise be to God, We muslims have been saved from this huge headache, we are at peace, there is only one God, and he has sent his last revelation, the Glorious Quran which is the same no matter which corner of the globe you go to, because it has not been changed which can be proven and it is also preserved in the hearts and memory of millions of believers through out the world.

  44. Kin Robles says:

    I pray that God demonstrates His love and mercy in all your lives and ask that peace fill your hearts.

  45. happy says:

    Asimplesinner,

    your replys are dazzling! (and surely God inspired!)What a list! Like you said, too, that is just the known ones.

    Rizwan, The bible is different? We have about 50 in our house, childrens, teens, devotional, catholic, king james, the message…..
    looks like the same info to me! And, last I checked we have one God, too.

  46. Dalry says:

    RIZWAN
    I know all that…(will not finish the sentence because I want to be polite).

    All that I have asked you were two simple questions and you are not able to reply. If the questions are not clear, ask for explanation by all means, and reply when you have understood the qustion.

    If you do not reply this time I will take for evident 1) that you haven’t read the Bible, still less understood it and found error in it. 2) That you don’t know what is the status of the Bible in the only true Christian Church, i.e. the Catholic Church.

    Kindly spare me of yet another tirade of words I am not interested to read. O.K, ? Sorry for being so brushing off, I don’t want the last time’s story again.

    This is a Catholic Blog. Anything you might know about others who call themselves Christians is applicable to us only if it is compatible with the Catholic Faith. So, you must always enquire whether what you think we believe, we really do believe, before making comments.

  47. When you say scripture in the catholic faith, may i ask what about the bible the protestants hold on to, or the jehovah witnesses hold on to, are they not the word of God.

    We are a Catholic blog run by Catholics that understand the Catholic Church to be the bearer of the light of revelation to the Gentiles, the fullfillment of Israel, and the Church instituted by God himself.

    If yes, then please correct me but the catholic bible (douay version) consists of 73 books where as the king james version (protestants along witht he bulk of christiandom use) has 66 books.

    The bulk of Christians are Catholics, friend, so it is patently untrue to say the bulk use the KJV. It is not even accurate to say that the bulk of non-Catholic Christians use the KJV, as that is only an English translation, and today’s Evangelical (the largest of the non-Catholic western sects) is as likely as not to not be an English speaker.

    This being said, Protestants lack the fullness of the faith, and we make no excuse or apology for their innovations. We are Catholics writing as such.

    7 books thrown out of the roman catholic bible which proceeded the king james version.

    Again, these errant sects are of recent innovation.

    Please enlighten me which of these different VERSIONS of the bible is the word of GOD!!!

    You are familiar enough with all of them that you are confounded with different translations? Do you understand the place of the Scriptures in the Catholic Church? That the sacred writings of our Faith founded by the good God Who loves us so much are NOT some recipe book of guides that we use in isolation from the living breathing magisterium that Christ Himself – True God and True Man – gave to us for leadership until the End of Days.

    But coming from a background where group interpretations of the Koran also vary, I find this an odd line of questioning and argument for you to pursue. Indeed with just one translation, (The Mormons can boast the same!) there is competitions of sects in the Religion of Submission.

    Praise be to God, We muslims have been saved from this huge headache, we are at peace, there is only one God, and he has sent his last revelation, the Glorious Quran which is the same no matter which corner of the globe you go to, because it has not been changed which can be proven and it is also preserved in the hearts and memory of millions of believers through out the world.

    And of course the fact that through jihad, dhimmitude, and the spreading of submission, Arabic has also been spread. So with just one copy of an unstranslated book, it is easy enough to say that they are all the same.

    Again, this demonstrates little, what do you respond to a Mormon who claims the miracle of the Book of Mormon? The suggestion that it is a miracle because it says it is a miracle, or that all copies are standard (so long as they are in Arabic) proves little to nothing.

    As to the idea that copy differences make a difference or challenge the authenticity, have you ever examined the differences in ancient manuscripts?

    The differences are fairly small.
    The differences are fairly small
    the differences are farily small.
    The differences are fairly Small.

    About as different as the four above sentences which could all be – rightly – claimed to be different. None of the differences are significant deviations in the text, but differences that can be found The differences that you seek to exploit are the differences of errors in copyists… If our religion were based on the ruthless adherence to the exacting copying and memorization of a text, this could, of course, be seen as unforgiveable and insurmountable. But it is not, so these differences are not.

    Do those differences confound you?

    I invite you to accept the love and peace of Jesus Christ, to repent of your sin and error, and be baptized in the name of the Trinity and to join our Holy, Timeless, and Divinely guided and protected faith.

    Eternity awaits.

  48. rizwan says:

    Dear brother (asimplesinner),

    Thw words you have written astound me to say the very least, with all due respect is this English. You say ‘Christ himself, True GOD and True Man’. What logic is this. Is man and God same in your faith. Can someone be eternal and yet die!!!!! Mystery indeed yet your bible tells us that ‘God is not the author of confusion’. We muslims agree, the confusion is man made!!!

    The christian scholars have gone through great pain in trying to convince muslims that versions and translations are the same thing which you have tried to point out above. May i repeat we are not pointing out to a mere choice of words, chunks and chunks of verses have been thrown out by NOT muslims scholors but chrsitian scholars of the highest emminance. You say the differences i seek are errors made by copyists, at least you admit the errors exist, how can you gaurantee any one that errors have not been made on more important issues regarding faith, for example the very foundation of faith which is the concept of God.

    You finished your mail by mentioning the trinity. Please show mee in your bible where the word trinity is or where Jesus mentions it.

    I am awaiting your response.

  49. Nan says:

    Faith isn’t logical. In any case, it’s unreasonable to demand proof from scripture in a religion that is not based on Sola Scriptura. If you want doctrinal proof of something, ask a Protestant.

    Check out Matthew 28:18

    We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is seen and unseen. We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, one in being with the Father. Through Him all things were made. For us men and our salvation He came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit, He was born of the Virgin Mary , and became man. For our sake He was crucified under Pontius Pilate; He suffered, died, and was buried. On the third day He rose again in fulfillment of the scriptures: He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end. We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son, He is worshiped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets. We believe in one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

  50. rizwan says:

    Nan,
    Faith is logical although it requires believing in the unseen but that does not mean it should not make sense, or contain mysteries. The messages all his prophets brought to mankind were very simple and clear, ‘there is only one God’, what is unlogical about that?
    God is the source of all knowledge so how can his words be mystifeing or unclear , in the bible it reads ‘God is not the author of confusion’. The Quran is crystal clear in its guidance to us, and God calls us to reason and use intellect and question this quran, investigate it because through searching we will come closer to the truth because the Creator is the manifest truth.

  51. Robert says:

    Nan,

    I think rizwan is right to avoid calling the faith illogical. But you do seem to qualify what you mean. So we’ll say that the faith is indeed logical but that, 1. demonstrative proof cannot be provided for it, because its subjects are above reason, and 2. proof-text cannot be demanded, because Scripture is not the sort of thing which can be proof-texted because it is intimately a possession of the Church which can only be read rightly within her own tradition.

    Rizwan,

    You said:

    “Thw words you have written astound me to say the very least, with all due respect is this English. You say ‘Christ himself, True GOD and True Man’. What logic is this. Is man and God same in your faith. Can someone be eternal and yet die!!!!! Mystery indeed yet your bible tells us that ‘God is not the author of confusion’. We muslims agree, the confusion is man made!!!”

    I would recommend that you study what Christians call “the communication of idioms,” which is part of the doctrine on the hypostatic union. It is indeed supremely mysterious, but not contradictory.

    Your statements are indicative of misunderstanding the communication of idioms. for instance, you ask “can someone be eternal and yet die?” And this is precisely what this doctrine clarifies.

    Let us take two concepts. The first will be person, the second will be nature. That God is personal we will not gainsay. And that God has a divine nature we won’t gainsay either.

    The Christian doctrine on the Incarnation is that a divine person, the second Person of the Trinity, assumed a human nature. Hence, it is that a divine person, with a divine nature, took on a human nature. The doctrine on the hypostatic union clarifies that He took on the human nature by uniting it in His person. The significance of this mysterious union is that we do *NOT* say that any change or alteration occurs to the divine nature, nor any mixing or dilution of either nature, but rather that each nature remains whole and entire.

    And this is what the communication of idioms comes down to. It is a series of rules for speaking of this divine mystery.

    1. Anything about the natures can be said about the person.
    2. Nothing proper to the divine nature can be said about the human nature.
    3. Nothing proper to the human nature can be said about the divine nature.

    So, for instance, when I say that, “God is eternal,” I am saying about the person God, that He is eternal. And eternity is a property which belongs to the divine nature. In this example I am using #1.

    When I say that, “Jesus is corporeal” I am also invoking that rule. For I am saying of the person Jesus that He is corporeal. And corporeality is a property which belongs to human nature. Hence, I am saying of the person something about the human nature.

    The problem isn’t here. Your problem is actually with #s 2-3. For you say that its absurd to say something eternal is yet mortal. And you’d be right… if we were speaking of each nature.

    It would be absurd to say:

    1. God’s divine nature is mortal.

    or,

    2. Jesus’ human nature is eternal.

    But that’s not what we’re asserting when we say that Christ is true God and true Man. The old-school theological term would be to say this: we don’t confuse the natures. We are NOT predicating anything proper to the human nature of the divine nature, or vice versa.

    Rather, when we make predications of the person Jesus Christ, we predicate something about the nature of the person.

    And so in saying that

    3. Jesus Christ is true God and true man.

    We are not saying either:

    4. The divine nature is human nature.

    or

    5. The human nature is divine nature.

    But rather that,

    6. Jesus Christ is a divine person, and he unites both a divine nature and a human nature in the unity of His person.

    And so you’ll see that whenever we make some (seemingly) outrageous statements, we’re not actually denying the dignity of the divine.

    For instance, it’s perfectly valid to say:

    7. God died on the cross.

    What?!? you say. How?

    Well, look closely and pay attention.

    I did not say:

    8. The divine nature died on the cross.

    Don’t take “God” here as “the divine nature.” (Natures, in any case, aren’t subjects, persons. When we make God the subject of a sentence, we do so inasmuch as He is a subject). When we say God died, we mean the person, God died. And how did he die?

    Well, He died in the way that every human being dies. His soul was separated from His body.

    That is, the human soul which was united intimately with the human body– the whole human nature which God assumed– were torn apart. As you can see, saying that “God died on the cross” does not mean that He underwent any change whatsoever according to His divine nature. And it would be an insult to the divine if His divine nature was indeed not divine, but we’re not saying that.

    Rather, it means that His human nature underwent a change. But there’s nothing absurd about that.

    Let’s make this tricky.

    9. The man, Jesus, is eternal.

    But, Rob, you’re saying. Aren’t you confusing the natures now? The answer is, no. For I did not say:

    10. The human nature of Jesus is eternal.

    or

    11. That man’s human nature is eternal.

    but rather:

    9. The man, Jesus, is eternal.

    And “the man” refers to the person. And it is true that the person is eternal, precisely because Jesus, in His divine nature, is eternal. And since what is true of either nature is true of the person, we can rightfully apply this to Jesus.

    But because we do not say anything of either nature proper to the other nature, we do not run into contradiction. And so what we say is not absurd.

    God bless you, and may the Holy Spirit inspire you and guide you so that you may discover the deep rationality of the Scriptures.

    -Rob

  52. Nan says:

    Rizwan, one of the problems here is that you’re mischaracterizing Jesus. We know he isn’t a mere prophet.

    Matthew 28:18-19 may help alleviate your confusion:

    18 Then Jesus approached and said to them, “All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
    19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit.

    Like every Catholic, I was baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit. As you can see from the prayer that follows, Jesus is God. And yes, even Martin Luther and John Calvin believed it.

    Hail Mary,
    Full of Grace,
    The Lord is with thee.
    Blessed art thou among women,
    and blessed is the fruit
    of thy womb, Jesus.
    Holy Mary,
    Mother of God,
    pray for us sinners now,
    and at the hour of death.

    Amen.

  53. rizwan says:

    Dear Brothers,

    With all due respect to you both, you have failed to give me what i requested.

    Rob, you have gone through great effort to explain the trinity yet the utter confusion (you call it mystery) is still there. For example who died on the cross, was it a man or God. If you say God died, then this is totally absurd , God is eternal. If you say the man (human nature) died then even then it does not add up. One man cannot die for the sins of the world. Many prophets have died or were killed, who sins did they die for???

    One man cannot carry the sins of all mankind, only God can (this is the logic of most of christians) remove all the sins of man. So if the man died on the cross, it holds no weight. This is just one example of the confusion. Then you say that the human nature in Jesus was separate from the divine nature, yet in the catogizim of the church, they say the father is a person, the son is a person and the holy spirit is a person BUT these are not 3 person but 1. They are co equal and co eternal. Yet every thing about Jesus, may peace be upon him, while he walked this earth is human and shows that he was a humble messenger and servant of Almighty God.

    Nan, you quote Jesus saying, ‘all power is GIVEN unto me’. Ask a child to read this statement and the child will tell you that this statement clearly indicates that the power is given to him by another source, it is not his. That source is the Father in heaven.

    Rob and Nan, i ask you to provide me with a single statement of Jesus, where he preaches to you this doctrine that you have spelled out above, or teaches you trinity or that he is God. In the bible we read, a learned man comes to Jesus and asks him ‘Rabbi, what is the first commandment of all’ and Jesus answers him, ‘Hear oh Israel, the lord OUR God, is ONE God.’ HE merely repeats word for word what was revealed to Prophet Moses 1000 years ago without a chance of a dot!!!!!!

    If trinity was what he was hear to preach, then it was the perfect opportunity to teach that poor soul that there are 3 that bear witness in heaven and these 3 are 1 but he said no such statement. The word Trinity is NOWHERE to be found in the bible but it is there in the Holy Quran. God Almighty says in the Quran to the Christians…’dont say Trinity, desist from this it will be better for you, for your Allah is one God’…

    Trinity is a utter lie created by the churches, hence this unsloved mystery, int he bbile God tells us that he is not the author of confusion. The very basis of our faith, the concept of God you have not been able to understand which is why there is so much confusion around. God almight revealed his verdict on this dogma 1400 years ago through the lips of his final messenger, prophet Muhammed, may peace be upon him, and laid to rest this huge lie caleed the Trinity. My brothers our God is one and he has no partners in his kingdom. Jesus who you claim to follow and we follow as Muslims too, never claimed to be God and his message was consistant with all the other messengers who came from the Almighty, ‘there is only one God’.

    I can give you the words of the master, quotes after quotes where he claims that he is simply a servant and meesneger of God, sent to the Jews. And statements he made that there is only one God, which is his and our lord.

    I await you toprovide me with just one statement from any bible you might have where Jesus himself says that I am God or worship me. Please bring the authority of Jesus because it is him you claim to follow and we muslims beleiev that this mighty messenger of God could never lie. Bring me the master words.

  54. ultraguy says:

    rizwan asked: “provide me with a single statement of Jesus, where he preaches to you this doctrine that you have spelled out above, or teaches you trinity or that he is God”

    OK, here it is: John 8:58, “I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

    It is what got him crucified. It is the most direct, but hardly only passage in scripture in which he gives us a very stark choice: believe Jesus is who he says he is (very clearly) or don’t believe anything he says at all. (I.e., he cannot be tamed as a mere prophet or good man without our setting ourselves up as little gods and crucifying him again as a blasphemer.)

    rizwan asserted: “Trinity is a utter lie created by the churches, hence this unsloved [sic] mystery”

    Either what you say is true, rizwan or… you are attempting to set yourself up as God by insisting that all mysteries must be rational from your perspective and in your opinion — insisting that the only God worth believing in is one you can wrap your mind around. I pray that you will accept God as he is: full of mysteries we can never know.

  55. Fr. J. says:

    Thanks, Ultraguy. “Ego Eimi” or “I AM” is a literal translation of the name of God, the tetragramaton. Jesus refers to himself many times as I AM in John’s gospel.

    Regarding who is it that died on the cross, St. Anselm explained in a way best suited to the philosophically minded non-Christian in his essay, “Cur Deus-Homo” or “Why the God-Man?”

    Basic points:

    1. God has given us the infinite gift of life and a relationship with him.
    2. Man by sin has rejected this infinite gift, creating an infinite debt.
    3. This infinite debt for sin cannot be expiated by man who is imperfect.
    4. Atonement for infinite sin can only be achieved by God.
    5. But it is not God who owes the debt or by justice should pay the debt, but man.
    6. Therefore, only one who is both God and man can repay the infinite debt, God because he is perfect and is ABLE, and man because he is the one who OUGHT to pay the debt.

    The divinity and humanity of Christ are natures, not persons. Christ is one person in two natures. When Christ acts he always does so as both human and divine. The action cannot be divided nor the person be divided.

  56. Fr. J. says:

    As for the oneness of the Trinity, Jesus speaks of his oneness with the Father. He likewise speaks of how the Father will send the Spirit as he has sent the Son. Thus, if the Father and Son are ONE, then the Spirit is also ONE with the Father and the Son.

    Yes, there is ONE God in three persons. The ONE God always acts as ONE God. So, the three persons all created the universe, for example, not one of them.

  57. Fr. J. says:

    Perhaps it is time now to switch things up a bit. How about we talk about the essentially violent nature of Islam?

  58. Fr. J. says:

    Perhaps it is time now to switch things up a bit. How about we talk about the essentially violent nature of Islam?

  59. Joel says:

    To me the most convincing statement Jesus made in His claim to divinity is the statement, “I am the good shepherd.” This is properly interpreted as a claim to divinty. Remember His audience was a group of pious Jews who knew the Scriptures. They knew He was refering to Ezekiel 34 where God says that He will tend His own sheep and take them out of the hands of His poor shepherds.

    One of the communication problems is that Islam projects a very distorted view of the nature of God. The religion claims to hold a view of a loving and meciful God, but in reality it does not. This point is made clear in one of the stories about Mohamed. In the Islamic Tradition, Mohamed prayed for a man who spoke out against his newly discovered religious tradition, and was subsequently ordered to stop doing such nonsensical behavior by an angel in the service of Allah, on the grounds that enemies of Islam are cut off and undeserving of the mercy of God. Is this something that would come from a loving and merciful God? No, in fact, according to this story Mohamed is depicted as a more merciful being than God! We can assume this because the angel commands Mohamed to stop praying and Mohamed initially refuses. The angel has to repeat the command from God to stop praying and Mohamed argues that God will hear his prayers if he prays long enough and insits that what ever it will take for God to show mercy Mohamed will do and then more. The angel again insits that God will never hear the prayers offered for an enemy of Islam and that is final, at which point Mohamed is left with no choice but to quit praying for the man. What kind of God is it when a mere human can be found to be more loving and more merciful than God?

    At any rate, the first thing to do is overcome the difference in the view of God. In my own opinion, this must begin with the Patriarchs, but Muslim believe Jews and Christians corrupted the Scriptures, so we must convince the Muslims to completely reject that idea before we can start with common ground. That is a big job!

  60. ultraguy says:

    Fr. J wrote: “only one who is both God and man can repay the infinite debt”

    And, if I’m not mistaken (and I very well could be because I’m not a) a theologian, b) a priest or c) Catholic), it was that very mystery/paradox (in earthly terms), i.e., the ‘both/and’ nature of Jesus the Christ as God/man, that made it impossible for Satan to figure out what he was doing, much less how to stop it and keep him captive.

    Ann Rice captures this idea nicely in ‘Christ the Lord, Out of Egypt’ when she writes dialogue from satan’s point of view. Trapped in time, constrained to his evil imagination and to the world’s rules, he could not conceive of the cross and what it achieved. Sadly, many today cannot either.

    Which brings us around to Fr. J’s match in a gasoline-filled room – Islam – born of an entirely different kind of ‘sacrifice’… that is, of everyone else’s blood (all non-muslims… jihad without end) for the purposes of earthly conquest. In most circles we call that mass murder.

  61. ultraguy says:

    Joel wrote: “Muslim believe Jews and Christians corrupted the Scriptures”

    A tough feat, that one, when we have 2100+ year old manuscripts of the book of Isaiah that one can go look at that clearly and specifically predict Christ.

  62. Robert says:

    rizwan,

    Please attend carefully to the distinctions which I made. They clear up the questions you have.

    “Rob, you have gone through great effort to explain the trinity yet the utter confusion (you call it mystery) is still there.”

    You are either saying that there is “utter confusion” because 1. you desire mathematical clarity with regards to the divine, or 2. you think I am contradicting myself.

    To require (1) would be ridiculous, for divine things truly are greater than the human mind. I suspect Muslims have a tendency to want to make God transparent because Islam is such a minimalist religion with regard to doctrine. But it would nevertheless be a ridiculous thing to require.

    I will assume that you are really asserting (2). But you really need to attend to my distinctions then, for my distinctions truly are the basis for avoiding any contradiction in my manner of speaking about the divine.

    “For example who died on the cross, was it a man or God. ”

    It was the God-man Who died on the Cross. To clarify– the divine person Jesus Christ died, and did so according to His human nature.

    “If you say God died, then this is totally absurd , God is eternal.”

    God did not die according to His divine nature. That would indeed be absurd. I’m not sure what death would entail for a divine being, but I do suppose it would involve going out of existence. But that’s not what I’m asserting, and so you do not have me in a contradiction. God died according to His human nature. The human nature of Jesus Christ is not eternal… there’s nothing absurd about asserting that.

    It goes without saying that *you* think it is false, but nevertheless my position is not internally incoherent.

    “f you say the man (human nature) died then even then it does not add up.”

    I don’t say the “human nature” died– natures do not die. Individuals who instantiate natures die. That’s kind of like saying, rizwan, that your mother gave birth to a human nature when you were born. But she didn’t give birth to a human nature, but rather to a person with a human nature. And she gave birth to you according to your human nature. And so the individual, the subject– that is, the person Jesus Christ– died, but He died according to His human nature.

    “One man cannot die for the sins of the world. Many prophets have died or were killed, who sins did they die for???”

    That man can do so if He happens to be a divine person.

    “One man cannot carry the sins of all mankind, only God can (this is the logic of most of christians) remove all the sins of man. So if the man died on the cross, it holds no weight. This is just one example of the confusion.”

    This is precisely the point. Inasmuch as Jesus is God, He was able to represent and atone on behalf of all sins, but inasmuch as He was human, he was able to suffer for us. It is the conjunction of the two which is necessary for this particular Christian theory. Funny enough, Christian doctrine posits that very conjunction.

    “Then you say that the human nature in Jesus was separate from the divine nature, yet in the catogizim of the church, they say the father is a person, the son is a person and the holy spirit is a person BUT these are not 3 person but 1.”

    Well, it’s a bit different than that. We say that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three persons (hupostases), and one God (really, one “being” (ousia)). There is, of course, a distinction. You represent us as saying that God is “3 persons and 1 person” but we don’t say that.

    “Yet every thing about Jesus, may peace be upon him, while he walked this earth is human and shows that he was a humble messenger and servant of Almighty God.”

    To the contrary, He took up many divine prerogatives. He claims a sovereign authority over the Torah when he reinterprets the Old Law in the Sermon on the Mount, saying, “It was written…” i.e., by Moses, and then, “but I say to you…”, and He teaches of His own authority, not as one in the tradition of scribes. That’s really a power that only the God of Israel had. Likewise, He claims a sovereign authority over the Temple. His turning over of the tables in the Temple is equivalent to the cessation of sacrifice, for sacrifice could only be bought when one had clean money. In this way He acted out the very cessation of Temple sacrifices which He predicted would happen in the destruction of the Temple– and more shockingly, instituted a new sacrifice at the Last Supper to replace and supplant the Temple. The Temple, as you know, is where God’s glory dwells, and He really makes himself out to be the new Shekinah, the new presence of God. Other great references are Jesus’ veiled hints at His divinity by saying that He is greater than other past greats… “there is someone greater than Solomon here.”

    “Rob and Nan, i ask you to provide me with a single statement of Jesus, where he preaches to you this doctrine that you have spelled out above, or teaches you trinity or that he is God.”

    Look at what He does, not just at what He says. But it is sufficient to quote John’s gospel: when He takes on the divine name (I AM) and they go to stone Him, “for He made Himself to be God.”

    God bless,

    Rob

  63. Nan says:

    Rizwan, your whole cult is misguided at the very least; Jesus was not a prophet. It’s fine that I can’t prove it to your satisfaction as I don’t aspire to follow heresy.

    What I don’t understand is the attraction to following a so-called religion that has to force people to belong. Islam doesn’t believe that people should be free to choose their belief systems, so murders people who convert to other religions as well as murdering those who choose not to convert to Islam. Oh, I forgot the other option, paying a tax and having fewer rights is an option. You don’t have to be a theologian to see that there’s something wrong with that.

    Additionally, Muslims the world over protest, riot and murder if things don’t go their way. How can any sane person be a part of this?

    Contrast this with Kosovar Christians, who were under cover for 500 years and only now have revealed themselves. Do you really think Muslims would do the same? I don’t.

  64. rizwan says:

    Nan,

    I must confess your understanding of Islam is very limited to say the least. You quote that in islam you are forced to accept islam or else you are murdered. Please back your statements up with proof. I look forward to you providing me with the quotation from the Holy quran where almighty God gives this command. While waiting i will give you a quotation from the quran with reference for you to check up on this issue. Holy Quran, C 2 V 256, God states ” Let there be no compulsion in religion. Truth stands out clear from Error; Thsi verse alone is enough to rebuke your misunderstanding concerning accepting islam. The biggest proof against your accusation that Islam is basically being spread by force is that in Arabia over the past 1400 years, muslims have mostly ruled this land BUT even yet there are curremtly 15 millions coptic (being christian for generations) arab christians. If Islam was forced down the throat of people there would not of being a single christina left in Arabia.

    I look forward to hearing your reponse on this claim before addressing the further points you raised.

  65. rizwan says:

    Rob,

    It seems like you have not understood my simple request i made. I had asked you to please provide me with a single statement that Jesus peace be upon him, himself made while walking this earth, where he says I am God or worship me. What youa re giving me is statement he or others made and deducing from that that this is what he meant or that in this statement he is hinting towards his divinty. My and your salvation does not depend on our interpretations, NO. We have to follow the master and what he commanded us do to in order to gain salvation. You said that Jesus made a reference that he is greater then the past greats (i.e solomon). We muslims believe that it is the Creator who decides who is the greatest out of his choosen servants, not you or I or anyone else. Jesus himself said in John 14:28 ‘My father is greater than I’. I am quoting the master here, Jesus said in John 13:16 ‘ he(Christ) that is sent i s not greater than the one who sent him’. These statements made by the master himself need no further expalining or interpretations. These words of the master clearly contradict the doctrine of trinity which the churches are preaching, (All 3 persons are co-equal), Jesus is telling us in clear words that the father is greater then Jesus.

    You early said jesus was totally human and totally God which is totally illlogical because both are totally opposite. Even still i give you the words of the master himself to prove to you that Jesus was onyl human and a messenger of the most High God. Jesus tells us concerning the final hour in Matt 24:36 ‘”But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.’ Hear Jesus clearly tell us that no one is aware of the final hour except God, this knowledge is with God alone. But if Jesus was God, how can he not be aware of this, as you Rob said all 3 persons in the godhead created the universe, they are equal in very sense then what kind of God is this that does not know when the final hour arrives. He (Jesus) was a great messenger of God and like his fellow prophets, he was consistant in his message and he like all the prophets (including Prophet Muhammed may peace be upon him) had no knowledge of the exact timing of the last hour.

    I can go on and on quoting the masters words. You remmeber of course the lords pray. ‘Oh OUR (his and ours) father in heaven , hallow be in THY (singular) name, THY kingdom shall come…..’ I cannot recall Jesus saying Oh my father, my kingdom or our kingdom shall come. He is stating most clearly that the kingdom belongs to Allah (in hebrew El, Elohim, Elah or Alah -in the Rev schofield bible backed by 8 DD’s spell God as Alah).

  66. Nan says:

    Rizwan, I choose not to read heretical materials such as the Koran. Instead, look to the newspapers which publicize the murders of and threats to Christians that if they refuse to convert they will be killed. This is common knowledge, as is the knowledge that Islam encourages its followers to lie to those who are not its followers.

    Case in point? The currency of the former Yugoslavia was called the Dinar, it’s name taken from THE TAX PAID TO THE MUSLIMS BY THOSE WHO REFUSED TO CONVERT. This is common knowledge so needs no citations.

    I’m proud to have lived in a town from which the Muslims fled when they discovered they were unable to conquer the land. All they left was their coffee.

  67. Robert says:

    Rizwan,

    I did understand your request. But your request, if taken so narrowly, is as silly as a secular atheist handcuffing me to using only scientific evidence to prove God’s existence, for one uses much broader types of evidence than scientific method to show God’s existence.

    Likewise, to show Christ’s divinity in the Scriptures one need not limit oneself to explicit statements like, “I am God.” Because Jesus does not say precisely that doesn’t mean that He doesn’t assert that He truly is God.

    But since you want explicit:

    1) Before Abraham was, I AM.

    This quote is clearly an adoption of the most Holy and Divine name, which God gave to Moses on Mt. Sinai. I will not repeat it in its native language. You know what this is.

    2) The Father and I are one.

    This is exactly it. Jesus and the Father share the same nature.

    3) St. Thomas falls at Jesus’ feet in worship, “My Lord and My God.”

    Surely if Jesus was simply a Muslim prophet He would have foresworn this, no?

    As for my other proofs, you mock them, but unreasonably. Some powers belong to God alone. These powers include legislation of divine law and sovereignty over the Temple. Jesus claimed and acted authoritatively with both, and the gospels note that He does not teach as one of the scribes but with AUTHORITY. Even Muhammed himself did not make divine law, did he? No, Muslims believe that God delivered it to him whole and entire.

    The rest of your quotes, allegedly contradicting Christ’s divinity, are typical diversions which Arian heretics have long insisted on against the orthodox faith.

    “Jesus tells us concerning the final hour…”

    He is speaking rhetorically, and that is how the Fathers interpret this. That’s why when Jesus says a similar thing at the beginning of the Acts of the Apostles He says that ‘it is not for you to know the seasons which the Father has fixed of His own authority…’ If you take them in the wholeness of the Scriptures it isn’t a problem.

    “You remmeber of course the lords pray. ‘Oh OUR (his and ours) father in heaven , hallow be in THY (singular) name, THY kingdom shall come…..’ I cannot recall Jesus saying Oh my father, my kingdom or our kingdom shall come.”

    You err here greatly. What does Jesus say to introduce this prayer? Why, He says, “This is how you are to pray.” (Matt 6:9). He NEVER addresses the Father together with us as “our.” He specifically says that this is how *we* are to pray, not how He prays.

    Rather, when He does address the Father in the context of us and Him, he says, “‘I am going to my Father and your Father…” (Jn 20:17). So there is a crucial distinction which the very text bears out. The relationship of Jesus to the Father is essentially different than ours to His. And this indeed is another proof of Christ’s divinity, for Jesus is a Son of the Father by NATURE and we are sons of the Father by adoption in grace.

    “Jesus himself said in John 14:28 ‘My father is greater than I’. I am quoting the master here, Jesus said in John 13:16 ‘ he(Christ) that is sent i s not greater than the one who sent him’. These statements made by the master himself need no further expalining or interpretations.”

    This is typical– you quote them, but only selectively. Jesus says *both* that ‘the Father is greater than I’ AND that ‘the Father and I are one.’ Why pick one and not the other? Rather, you must pick both to interpret them correctly.

    The second one clearly affirms that Jesus and the Father are one. So to claim that Jesus is merely a man on the basis of the other quote is unwarranted. Rather, it helps us to understand that as regards Jesus’ human nature, it is inferior to the Father, but Jesus as divine is equal to the Father. This is a simple solution.

    As to the “sent” business, a simple logical point. “Not greater” cannot be equal to “lesser” because these are not mutually exclusive categories. After all, “equal” is certainly not “lesser” but it is “not greater.” I could just as easily interpret Christ’s words to mean that He is equal to the Father.

    Let me quote from the very same chapter that quote is from to further prove my point on Christ’s divinity. Again He takes the divine name (I AM) and asserts He is I AM.

    “From now on I am telling you before it happens, so that when it happens you may believe that I AM.” (Jn 13:19).

    Of course, John also has a very strong doctrine of the mutual indwelling of the Father and Son (see Jn 14:10, for instance). This is a peculiar divine property, which is certainly not a naturally human trait. In fact, Jesus MUST be divine because only a divine person can divinize you.

    Jesus says that, “Whoever has my commandments and observes them is the one who loves me. And whoever loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and reveal myself to him.” and that” Jesus answered and said to him, “Whoever loves me will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our dwelling with him.” (JN 14:21, 23)

    Jesus is promising the INDWELLING of God in their souls as a reward for believing in them, and says that He and the Father are going to indwell in the souls of believers. This is a *classic* text on divinization, and it’s as simple as this: you can’t give what you don’t have. What mere man could promise the indwelling of God as a reward?

    Rizwan, I tell you– you should read our mystics, like Sts. Teresa of Avila and John of the Cross. They experienced most intimately the indwelling of the King, Jesus Christ, in their souls. They know what it is to experience this awesome indwelling. And I tell you, Jesus did not lie in His promise, for all the saints experience this marvelous indwelling, and the fire of His love.

    And what of that other great divine power, the FORGIVENESS OF SINS. Indeed, Jesus not only forgives sins, which I doubt a Muslim thinks a mere man can do of His own authority, but He also gives that very power of forgiveness of sins to other men. ” And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.” (JN 20:23)

    Everything points to Christ’s divinity. At least a few things are explicit (“I AM” and “The Father and I are one”, etc), and many more are just as convincingly implicit.

    Let’s be honest, Rizwan, this is no mere man. Islam is simply wrong about how Jesus portrayed Himself. And the apostles clearly worshiped Him as LORD (Kurios– another divine only title, a stand in for the divine name) and clearly ascribed divinity to Him, the only possible source of this teaching being from Jesus Himself.

    God bless,
    Rob

  68. Robert says:

    Oh, and Joel’s point is excellent. The title of “good shepherd” is another divine title which God keeps for Himself alone in the Old Testament. Yet another proof of Christ’s claim to divinity.

  69. rizwan says:

    Nan, I really regret to hear that you base all your opinions on a way of life which is adhered to by 1.8 billion people in the world basically on what the newspaper or media informs you. If any muslims int he world commits an offence, i take it you will blame Islam for it. If you for example see a muslim throwing litter on the street you will immediatelt hold Islam to blame although Islam stresses out that cleaniness is half of your faith!!!!!! It is very unfortunate. If we muslims were to take a stand point like this then would it be fair to put blame on Jesus for the actions of the IRA who were performing terrorists activities in Ireland and Uk (Arndale bomboing in Manchester), who are the IRA, they are christians so according to Nans way of thinking, this is what christians are all about and this is what their religion teaches them, right????

    No thanks God we dotn judge a system according to its followers becuase the followers may not accurately represent the religion. You should go to the source of their teaching (scriptures), int he case of Islam , the holy Quran.

    I challenge you Nan, to remove from your minds all the distorted allusions you might have of Islam, and to read to quran and then point out to me a single verse in the Quran which goes against humanity or rational thinking.

    Oh yeh i have noticed you have made constant mention of this tax that the non muslims have to pay to the muslims. I am no scholor in Islam, but i would like to tell you that this tax that was paid to the muslims was not becuase they did not revert to islam, it was to contribute in costs made by the authority in defending the country against any attack, and funding for development, helping the poor etc.. Just like the taxes that we pay in this time. It was a contribution the non muslims had to make if they were not willing to fight any intruders who waged war. What is wrong about that
    ??

    You mentioned again that if you do not accept Islam , you are to be murdered, i am still awaiting proof from you for this claim, like i said earlier go to the source (the holy Quran) and bring me the verse which gives this instruction. I have previuosly quoted you the quran which emphatically states there is no cumpulsion in faith.

  70. Nan says:

    Rizwan, your suggestion that I read the Koran is misguided. Your statement that I would believe that Islam made someone litter is disingenuous; I live in an area where Muslims think that it’s okay to impose Sharia on the general public which is absolutely unconstitutional.

    Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit. As it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.

  71. Dalry says:

    RIZWAN,
    Earlier (end October) in this Post you claimed to have proved that the Quran was a revealed book, but when asked to demonstrate it by a syllogism, the premises of which would be either self-evident, or demonstrable by another syllogism, or at least acceptable to me, you chose to ignore my request. Recently (December), you refused to tell whether you have read the Bible, and what is the status of the Bible in the Catholic Faith, and yet you embarked on a debate with Simplesinner and Rob, for which debates these two issues are highly relevant.

    Your debate with Rob is about Catholic Christology and you also ventured to tackle the doctrine on the Holy Trinity. Any reasonable debate cannot start without those involved knowing the position of their respective correspondents, and from what I gather you did not take trouble to learn the essentials of the Catholic Christology and the Trinitarian doctrine. If you don’t know it how can you object to it? If, on the other hand, you do know it, here is yet another set of questions to you, in the hope that you will not come up, as before, with yet another tirade without answering the questions.

    The first question is: would you state briefly the Catholic doctrine about the Holy Trinity? The second is: would you state briefly the Catholic doctrine about Christ, and put it in the context of the doctrine about the Holy Trinity.

    I am not asking for your opinion as to whether the two doctrines are true or false, but only want to make sure that you know what these doctrines are all about according to the Catholic Faith. because it you do not know how can you criticize them?

    If you do not know, you are like Cervantes’ Don Quixote, fighting the windmill while believing it to be the knight. If you do know, would you, please, spell them out?

  72. rizwan says:

    Dalry,
    I always like talking simple clear facts which even if a child heard, it would make sense to them. You asked me to give you an example using syllogism. The truth is this is the first time i have heard this word in my life, i asked my work collegues and even they did not know what this term meant. I have had to check it up on google before it kind of made sense too me, I ask you that i am speaking plain facts to you, making a statement and backing it up with proof which points to my initial statement, yet you are asking me to repeat these words but this time using syllogism??? WHY?

    I mean if i say to any human being that a book thats claims to be from God should be perfectly consistant through out and with out error. Is that a fair comment? Of course i say because God is the source of all knowledge, how can his words contain error or be inconsistant. So here is a attempt by me to give you a syllogism:

    God revelation IS consistant and without error.

    Now, the holy Quran revealed 1400 years ago challenges mankind in verse 4:82…’Do they (unbelievers) not consider this Quran with care, had it being from anyone other then Allah (God), they would of found within it many a discrepancies’..

    The Quran challenges all mankind that if they want to prove that this book is not from who it says it is (God) then just pull out a single error. 1400 years have past by , not a single error has been taken out of this book. Many critics have tried to take out so called errors (taking exception to words mistranslated etc..) but clearly these have been convincingly re buked and upto this day even great staunch critics of Islam have acknowledged that the quran is indeed a miracle.

    So God word is without error and consistant.

    Quran challenge to mankind to take out a single error has not being achieved.

    Quran is the word of God.

    I hope this is on the lines of what you requested, if not I am sorry but I am a man who likes talking simple facts with logic and reason.

    You asked me concerning reading the doctrines of trinity and catholism. My brother, i ask you a simple question, if i told you that 1+1+1= 1, and you did not agree and understand this, would it make sense for me to tell you that you need to and study mathematics in detail and then return to me in order to discuss this.
    If the very basis of the teaching on which all your teaching are based is unclear and confusing and your own thelogians and trinitarians professors and doctors have totally failed to explain over the last 2000 years, how can further reading in to the subject enlighten me. It certainly did not enlighten the learned people of Catholism, they at the end of the day just submit to saying that it is a mystery, cant be explained , you just need to believe it. THATS IT.

    If they cant understand it how can you ask me to undersdtand it. If the very foundation of the trinity is faulty, every thing you build upon it is unstable and bound to fall. The church fathers had in their categism when explaining the trinity have said the Father is a person, the son is a person and the holy spirit is a person, but they ar enot 3 persons but 1 person. I ask you when you mention the father are you thinking of the son? Each person will have a separate mental picture in your mind, it is only natural, when the holy ghost is mentioned you will not be imaging the son, you will be thinking of may be a dove liek figure or some mysterious ghostly figure. You can try as hard as you can brother but you will never be able to super impose all these 3 SEPARATE images into one image yet the churches teaches all 3 persons are 1 person!!!! Can you explain this logic and doctrine which your own Theologians have given up on.

  73. rizwan says:

    Nan,

    You have not responded to my statements and just summarised it up by saying that to make you live according to islamic shariah is unconstitional!! Firstly brother in which part of the world do you live???

    Secondly, please point out a single law of the shairah which goes against humanity as a whole to which you have taken exception. In Islamic law, God clearly states that people belonging to different faiths have the right to practise their way of life freely. If a islamic state for example prevented people worshipping in a church, then that state is to balme for not obeying the shariah. Why blame Islam, go to the source and see wehat it says, that is the fair way of arriving at any conclusion.

    Like i said earlier, in Islam there is no compulsion in faith and all the laws prescribed by our creator can be only for the betterment of mankind.

  74. Dalry says:

    RIZWAN
    To put it to you in a simplest way, a syllogism is a logical argument in three propositions, two of which are Premises and the third one is a Conclusion that follows necessarily from these Premises. If your fried keeps a wooden cupboard near an open fireplace, how can you persuade him to remove it because it is a fire hazard?

    First Premise is: What is made of wood is inflammable.
    Second Premise is: That cupboard is made of wood.
    Conclusion is: That cupboard is inflammable.

    The conclusion is logically correct, because the “wood” present in both Premises makes a link between them, and permits the subject of the second Premise, i.e. “cupboard” to be the subject of the Conclusion, and the predicate of the first Premise, i.e. “inflammable” to be the predicate of the Conclusion.

    For the conclusion to be, not merely logically, but really correct, both Premises must be really correct, i.e. true. That the wood is inflammable is known from experience, and your friend doesn’t dispute that his cupboard is made of wood. So, the Conclusion is really correct, and you do not have to put your friend’s cupboard on fire to prove it.

    As you are not able to construct a syllogism of this kind to prove that the Quran is revealed by God, and yet you claim to have proved it, all that you have proved is that you do not think in a simplest logical way. From the renewed account of what you have already said at least twice, it is even difficult to figure our what are your starting Premises, not to mention the notion (word) that links them and permits the Conclusion. And, as I said, each of the Premises (if you have them at all) has to be either self evident, or proved as a Conclusion from further two Premises, or be of such nature that I would find them acceptable. I would be happy to apologize if you manage to prove in this way that the Quran is revealed, but I am sure I wouldn’t have to apologize.

    Your repeated refusal to answer the questions about the Bible, makes reasonable my conclusion that (a) you haven’t read it and (b) you do not know what is its status in the Catholic Faith. In other words, you are meddling in matters you do not know when comparing the Bible with Quran.

    Regarding the Holy Trinity and Christology, I have made it perfectly clear that I do not ask you to tell me whether the Catholic doctrine is true or false, but I have asked you to tell me what is it that we believe as we believe it, because if you do not know what we believe you can’t express your opinion either. And you have chosen to ignore the question and have expressed, yet again, your opinion, i.e disagreement, not with the Catholic doctrine but with your own misconception of it.

    How would you react if a “Christian” told you that you Moslems do not believe in God, but some strange being called Allah? Or if somebody told you that you believe that Mohammed is God? I am sure you would be irritated, and rightly so. And what you attribute to the Catholic doctrine on Bible, Jesus and Trinity, is equally false an irritating, particularly because you persist in your misconception showing no interest in learning from us what we believe.

    That you would not be pleased with these misconceptions by “Christians”, is evident from your reaction to the challenge about the compulsion in religion, which you believe to be false (although in that particular issue your view is not the view of all Moslems, nor is your interpretation of Quran the only possible interpretation, but I will come to it in due course; as well as demonstrate the serious error about the Gospel).

  75. rizwan says:

    Dalry,

    Please, i would like to re emphasie to you that dont judge a way of life according to the people who follow that system becuase there is always that chance that the people you look at might not be accurately respresenting the teaching of that religion. What is final is the quran states that every human being has a right to choose between truth and falsehood, there must be no compulsion. Now IF you have seen muslims focing islam down peoples throats then they are not following the commands of Allah but dont label Islam with the actions of such people.

    We need to go to the scriptures and only then we can make comments because that is what the people are adhereing too so any faults found here can be discussed. You are continously asking me about Trinity, please point out to me where in the bible trinity is mentioned? Where did Jesus explain this doctrine to you, from there we can discuss this.

    Just like in Islam, the foundation of this way of life is this simple statement…’there is no God except Almighty Allah (God). This statement is found through out the quran repeated again and agin and explained in detail by the Creator. Because this is the most important pillar of faith and if the pillar is strong the remaining foundations on which faith is built will be stable.

    If trinity is the truth and this what Jesus came to preach surely he should of mentioned this and explained it in detail seeing that it is such a huge mystery. Why did he not clear this mystery!!!!

  76. Dalry says:

    RIZWAN
    Let me summarize:
    (1) You can’t prove that the Quran is revealed
    (2) You have not read the Bible
    (3) You do know what is the status of the Bible in the Catholic Faith. If you knew, you would not raise the question: “point out to me where in the bible the trinity is mentioned.”
    (4) You do not know what the Catholic doctrine on the Holy Trinity is all about. If you knew you wouldn’t say: “the Father is a person, the son is a person, the holy spirit is a person, but they ar enot 3 persons but 1 person.”
    (5) You do not want to know what the Catholic doctrine on Jesus Christ is all about. If you wanted to listen Rob would have explained it to you.

    And yet you venture to comment on (3), (4) and (5).

    The last sentence in your first paragraph has nothing to do with what I had in mind with the phrase in parenthesis toward the end of my last post. I will come back to it in due course. Likewise, to the claim that there are no errors in Quran. My main point of interfering with your dispute with others was to clarify the position on the points 1-5 above, because these essentials could be easily overlooked.

    Peace.

  77. rizwan says:

    Dalry,

    I have made and raised questions to which you have not responded. I am not shocked because even the learned scholors of Christianity have not been able to answer these geniune questions asked by the non christians.

    The problem i see is that you are looking at the Quran and comparing it with the Bible, and keeping this in mind you are forming your opinions. May i repeat the Quran and the Bible are totally different. We Muslims believe that the Quran is totally the word of God, revealed by revelation to the last prophet Muhammed , may peace be upon him. All its verses were memorized by his followers in his lifetime and written down under his supervision and hence the Quran was formed and even upto this day we have the same Quran available for all to see and investigate for themselves.

    The bible is totally different, Jesus while he walked this earth delivered the Gospel verbally BUT his words were never written down at that time nither did he himself ever instruct any of his followers to write what he said. The earliest gospel to be penned down was Mark (according to records no second name), this was written approx 60-70 years after christ. and all others gospels followed. It was about 360years later in the council of Nicea that after much debate it was decided (by MAN) that what writting should make up the bible and what should be rejected!!!!!!!!!!! So MAN decided, not GOD that what should be part of the word of God and it only took 360 years after chrsit departed for an agreement to be made.

    Unfortunately up to this day, there is still no stop dissagreement between christians resulting in chopping and changing, countless revisions which have left currently 360 different versions of the bible (different number of books, different authors), i ask you which is the word of God???

    If you tell me the catholic bible i repeat again Dalry, that the bible you have is based on COPIES of the manuscripts which the church processes , i belive 24000 in number but again these are copies, the orginals are lost. Copyists who copied them were not free from error, your christian scholors tell us this. NONE OF THE 24000 maunscripts are identicle so now can you please tell me how do we know which one is the word of God and the unlimited number of contradictions present in the bible, who is accountable for that, is it GOD?

    This is just one fact , which explains how the Quran is totally different from the bible. In the quran God himself promises to guard the quran….”Surely We have revealed the Reminder (the Quran), and surely We are its Guardian.” (15:9)

    Here is a prophecy, that the Quran will remain preserved till the last day. This in itself is one of many falsification tests given to the reader in order top ut the quran to the test and see for themselves how the quran passes these tests with flieing colors.

    This in itself is sufficient proof which you were asking for. God word is for the end of time, as soon as man’s word enters the words of God then it ceases to remain the word of God just like the case when a individual makes a will, if a single letter is misplaced, added or deleted then by law its ceases to be considered valid.

    This is unfortunately what his happened witht he bible for the last 2000 years and is continuing to happen even now.

    You asked for proof, i have given you proof brother. The quran is still the same today as it was when revealed approx 1400 years ago, and this you can check up and investigate.

  78. Dalry says:

    RIZWAN
    All that I have said on the 29th December still stands. What you say in paragraph 5, corroborates by point (3). In fact, the number of these points has now to be increased.
    Please, amend the text adding two new points:

    (6) You have not read the text of the Council of Nicea (re: your para 3).
    (7) You do not know the difference between the Christianity in a full sense, i.e. the Catholic Faith, and defective Christianity of other communities (re: para 4).

    I am familiar with the legend accounted in the last sentence of your paragraph 2. And what you say in the first sentence of the paragraph 3 proves that Quran is not revealed, but, as I said, I will come back to it in due course.

    Please, forgive me for being so brief this time, but I have other duties to attend. If you celebrate the New Year’s date, happy be it to you.

  79. Dalry says:

    Sorry, amend my first paragraph above: should read “my point (3)”, not “by point (3)

  80. rizwan says:

    Dalry,

    I hope you have had a happy new year.

    Concerning your above statement about what you have been asking for still stands is shocking. I have provided you with a simple syllogism:

    Gods word is without errors/contradictions

    The holy Quran is without error/contradictions

    The holy Quran is the last revelation of God to mankind.

    The quran is challanging me and you to pull out an error if you can.

    The ball is in your court now!

  81. Dalry says:

    RIZWAN

    What is your first Premise, its subject and its predicate ?
    What is your second Premise, its subject and its predicate ?
    What is your Conclusion, its subject and its predicate ?

    All that you have proved is that you do not think in a logical way.

  82. edt says:

    just want to say, this is a great debate, christians and muslims, thanks for the insight.

  83. edt says:

    by the way it seems to me that the biggest difference between christians and muslims is that for christians only a very very few take the bible as the literal word of god. they feel that it is mostly symbolic and allegory, that jesus talked in ways to lead you to a comprehension of god, he didn’t talk and tell you exactly how to live your life in every detail. People who believe in the literal word of god for christianity we call fundamentalists, they are the people that make cartoons with jesus riding on dinosaurs. jews also dont take the bible as the literal word of god, when genesis says the world was created in 7 days the jews dont think that is a literal seven days they think it is a story and a parable, and the universe could have been created in 15 billion years and the story would still have meaning.

    Muslims are all fundamentalists. They all are like the Jesus riding a dinosaur christians, where they believe in the absolute and literal word of koran and each and every single word in it is literally true and straight from god and that there to be a muslim there can be no deviation from following exactly everything in the koran.

    I think a lot of the difference has to be in how the churches were formed where Paul of tarsus basically built the church and in his letters to the corinthians he describes how to behave as a christian and its very much down to earth about the faith. The equivalent of paul in Islam is mohammad but the difference is that while paul is merely a man who teaches, mohammad says that he is repeating the very words of god.

    I think this distinction means that pretty much every muslim ends up being a fundamentalist. In terms of following a religion its much easier to be a fundamentalist. You dont have to think “What does this story mean, is there symbolism” its like trying to read james joyce, nobody wants to wade through a bunch of alternative meanings, they just want to have a simple demand they want to be led and not think, people want to be fundamentalists.

    while to be a christian fundamentalist one ends up with cartoon jesus riding a dinosaur, to be a muslim fundamentalist is to be a normal muslim, and even the differences between sects of islam, like shia or sunni are not real differences in the way that a protestant is different from a baptist but they are both fundamentalists who believe in the literal word of the koran, there’s no real interpretation of the koran, like there is in christianity.

    anyway that’s my take after reading the above

  84. para kazan says:

    thank you for all comments and information.

  85. Dalry says:

    edt – I don’t think it is possible to establish “the biggest difference between christians and muslims” because, from one side, besides the Catholic Church who alone is the Christian Church properly so called, and is so in a full sense, there are many Christian Churches, Communities, sects, and groups (like Jehovah’s Witnesses, Marmons, Scientologists etc) – all of them believing that the Bible, or a part of it, is the “word of God”, but differ in their understanding of what it means; AND from another (side), Islam is too great a religion to enable us to establish by sociological research what all Moslems have in common, while nobody is authorized to articulate their faith in terms acceptable to all.

    The Moslems I was privileged to contact thus far do indeed believe that “every single word in …the Koran is the absolute and literal word of …god” – to put briefly what you say. The same is the case with the Jehowah’s Witnesses, low Protestants etc. – briefly: Christian fundamentalists, with regard to the Bible. Common to both is that the Koran and the Bible respectively are a sort of the faxmashines’ printouts, the faxmashines themselves being composed of Mohammed, scribes/memorizers and final redactors from one side; or inspired writers and scribes from another, whereby the texts thus produced were, in point of fact, cabled from Heaven. They are a divine revelation on which their respective faiths totally depend.

    But I am not sure that this view is attributable to all Moslems, and it is definitely nor attributable to the Catholics and the Orthodox Churches.

    The problem with Moslems of the kind described is that they are putting all “Christians” in one basket, believing that they all conceive the Bible as they, the Moslems, conceive the Koran; looking for the “errors” in the Bible, and attributing these “errors” to all “Christians”.

    If you ask the Moslem what is, in the Catholic faith, analogous to their Koran, he will, without attempting to grasp the difference between the Catholic Church and what he conceives as “Christianity”, reply – the Bible, which is wrong. He believes that the Koran is the fullness of revelation, and, making his DIY analogy, attributes to Catholics the belief that the Bible, too, is the fullness of revelation, which is also wrong. The fullness of Revelation is not the Bible but God Incarnate, Jesus, who through his Humanity reveals to us his Divinity. The Word, the Second Person, “became flesh, and lived among us”; “we saw his glory”. He is much more than the Bible. The Bible is about Him, but “we saw” him. In Him God has revealed Himself to the early Church, living and praying with His disciples and teaching them; so, the Church from generation to generation, hands on in her life, worship and doctrine, what she has received from God Incarnate.

    The NT is a reflection of the life, worship and doctrine of the early Church, written in the Church, by the Church and for the Church; which, she, under the guidance of the Holy Ghost, canonized as the Word of God inspired by the same Holy Ghost. She is its human author, and therefore, its sole authentic interpreter. To quote the NT against the Church, as it is done by the Moslems and Christian fundamentalists, is a total and utter nonsense.

    The same applies to the OT, which the Church “wrote” in the sense of having it adopted as her own book (as the Pope adopts the texts produced by others for his own documents), but in a specifically Catholic sense, different from the sense given to it by the Jews; which sense is evident even within the NT itself, whenever it refers to the OT.

    To continue along these lines, if we ask the Moslem what is, in the Catholic faith, analogous to Mohammed, he will, without attempting to grasp the difference between the Catholic Church and what he conceives as “Christianity”, reply – Jesus, which is again wrong. Mohammed is not himself the fullness of revelation, but is believed to be the recipient/transmitter of it. In other words, he is a constitutive part of the “faxmashine”. On the other hand, Jesus is neither the recipient nor the transmitter, although the Moslems believe that He is (albeit not in fullness, like Mohammed); He Himself IS the Revelation. The Revelation is not “given to” Him as the Moslems believe that it is “given to Mohammed” (albeit fully and finally).

    If one would draw analogy, He is analogous to what the Moslems believe to be the Koran, i.e. the fullness of Revelation.

    It is a mistake to conceive the Revelation as merely a set of information or instructions. It is primarily God’s personal self-communication to us as persons.

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  90. Santiago says:

    Very energetic article, I enjoyed that bit. Will there be a part 2?

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